By Will Sturgeon, 16 April 2004 08:20
NEWS Forty per cent of silicon.com readers are vehemently opposed to the introduction of compulsory ID cards - yet the majority are in favour, as long as they help crack down on benefit fraud, illegal immigration and other crime.
Of those in favour of the cards a staggering 82.9 per cent of the 1,500 respondents to a silicon.com survey conducted over the past week said they believe the cards will cut down on benefit fraud. More than two thirds (67 per cent) said they believe the cards will cut down on illegal immigration.
However, despite this apparent show of support for compulsory ID cards, the most vocal commentators on the issue all tend to be from the anti-ID card lobby, with the more outlandish drawing extreme parallels with the Book of Revelations, likening ID cards to the mark of the beast.
Others have expressed concerns about 'Big Brother' watching over us, such as one reader who wrote in to say: "We will all be watched and monitored whether we are hiding something or not."
But among those in favour there is a clear feeling that such hype is clouding the issue, with 49.8 per cent claiming the 'Big Brother' concerns are being fuelled by the media, while 30 per cent claim those who oppose ID cards are being paranoid. Thirty per cent also believe those opposed are simply "afraid of change". Two thirds (65.7 per cent of respondents) said the only people who need fear ID cards are those with something to hide.
One reader wrote in to say: "All this paranoia makes me laugh! Do people really think that the police have nothing better to do with their time than monitor 'ordinary' people?"
Another reader, based in Belgium, believes it is high-time the UK caught up with the rest of Europe in implementing ID cards.
"Pretty much every other European country has official ID cards and the people living there have not lost control over their lives. On the contrary, an official ID card significantly reduces the risk of identity theft, which is a growing problem in the US and the UK where ID cards are not available."
However, that view wasn't shared by all who took the survey. Even among those who support some form of compulsory ID card there are concerns about the cards. Forty per cent agreed with the statement that 'ID cards could be open to abuse and increase the likelihood of fraud an identity theft'.
Despite that 73 per cent of those in favour of some flavour of ID card believe we will see an effective introduction of compulsory ID cards in the UK.
What is your view? Let us know by posting a Reader Comment below. silicon.com will be bringing you more on this subject, based on our recent research and other developments, over the coming weeks.
Comments
There are 107 comments. Join the discussion
1. Rob
The only reason I'm opposed to the scheme is that I really don't trust the government to keep my data safe.
The people that will use this data or have access to are some of the most underpaid workforce in the UK, highlighted by a strike earlier this week. What motivation do they have to keep my data safe? Why wouldn't they take up an offer from a criminal network to earn more money by passing data on when the government in some cases doesn't even pay them enough that thye don't have to apply for some of the benefits they are actaully in charge of issuing.
At the end of the day any project like this will take forever to get finalised and put into use, judging by their past track record of similiar IT infrastructure projects.
2. Geoffrey Darnton
It is very easy to be dismissive of concerns on the grounds that only those with something to hide will object to ID cards. That is a luxury only available while there is some semblance of democracy. However, we don't have a constitution with effective checks and balances against some extreme legislation ... and don't forget that the 1930s and 1940s holocaust would not have been anything like as large if it had not been for the application of information technology and information systems (any doubters should read the book 'IBM and the Holocaust'). Genocide and the implementation of oppressive legislation are much more effective with the application of ID information and IT. That is the real issue. Fight ID cards tooth and nail until we have effective constitutional safeguards against arbitrary legislation - such safeguards are not yet available in UK or EU.
3. Kev
Have a read of this and judge for yourselves. It's a report from Bruce Schneier, a highly respected security consultant, on the US efforts.
http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/4698350.html
4. anonymous
I dont understand the paranoia of ID cards as so many of us are willing to use Nectar cards which tell so many major companies what we buy and how often we buy this stuff, eg Sainsburys shoping, and petrol, etc!
Secondly, I dont seem to see much difference in the ID cards to the idea of a passport? Do we not need to give a whole host of personal details to get a passport? Wouldnt we just be walking round with a credit card passport all day long?
Finally, the Big Brother theme? Why is there such paranoia if you have nothing to hide? And if the ID cards manage to stop people flying jets into Canary Wharf then I will be first in line to get my ID card, whether im being spied on or not!
5. Bob Payne
I'm only opposed to the huge cost that ID cards will be for the public, with a family of 4 expected to pay up to £300
Anonymous is all in favour of id cards but will not publish a name here.....why
6. MR.RUDE PRIVACY
There is NO WAY ANYBODY can compel me to buy and obtain a piece of plastic to live and work in my own country.
7. Andy W
Anon,
Having an ID card will NOT stop anyone flying a plane into Canary Wharf, just as they did not stop the Madrid train bombings.
It is not paranoid not to want an ID card, it is more about personal freedom and liberty etc.
The pro ID card faction seems to think that the best reason to have them is that they will stop terrorism. However I have not heard a single person actually tell us just how this is going to happen.
8. Peter Scott
In reply to Rob, I worked as one of the "underpaid workforce" for a number of years. I can assure him that while we were underpaid, the peoiple I worked with were honest, committed and hard working. Even now 5 years after leaving the DSS I am still expected to abide by the constraints of the Official Secrets Act and the Social Security Act, and continue to do so.
It is comments such as those made in Rob's posting that made me want to leave the public sector. I am sure Rob would applaud and support the work of the Nursing Proferssion or Teachers. I was a Civil Servant in the Department of Social Security, that means Rob feels I would have been likely to "take up an offer from a criminal network to earn more money by passing data on" because "the government in some cases doesn't even pay me enough". The reason I or any of my former colleagues would not have done such a thing is called integrity.
9. anonymous
While in total favour of ID cards - I do think that all should be issued with no additional cost to the receiving person. The present idea of replacing the passport at twice the cost and reducing the length of issue to half is just over the top and a back door method of increasing government funding.
10. Hid Sugiura
I'm not overly convinced ID cards will stop people flying a jet into Canary Wharf either BUT I'm also not convinced about the argument that having ID cards will impinge upon my personal freedom and liberties.
How exactly? What is going to be on this ID card? What data is going to be on this card that I should be so scared of or that will affect my freedom?
Someone pls elaborate.
11. Chris Tolmie
Actually, I agree with identity cards, but am worrind about the overall trend. This government is increasingly intrusive in many areas:-
1/. The creation of a more powerful Ofcom designed to regulate both content and networks
2/. Biometric identity cards which could hold more than just a system to match a name to a face.
3/. Increasing use of CCTV in high streets.
4/. Discussions of chipping our children to keep the safe.
These and other initiatives are all small, but in combination, and over time will result in more central control and a loss of privacy.
12. Richard Thomas
Why should IDs help ? why should they not be forged like everything else ? obtainied under false pretences ?
We're not making this decision for now - we're making it for fifty years' time when the Home Secretary makes it compulsory to carry the card, always, in a (by then) simple step. And you can't nip out for a sandwich, or for a walk, without your card. What the govt is doing is establishing the *principle* of tagging its citizens, now, while we're spooked about terrorism etc. Read what Bruce Schneier says - please.
13. Pádraig Floyd
In response to the issue of ID cards:
It is ridiculous to think that government's wish to impose ID cards has anything to do with benefit fraud or illegal immigrants. These are merely red herrings of the Daily Mail school used to cajole the less fortunate into believing that they are being assailed from all sides by the forces of darkness.
There is no evidence from any country that has used ID cards that they can prevent illegal immigration or terrorism. If that was the case, then surely the Spanish train bombers would have been apprehended before committing their wicked slaughter.
Introducing ID cards to reduce benefit fraud is rather a drastic step. After all, everyone has a national insurance card. Why aren't these used more effectively to carry data which could be checked much as we do with telephone banking?
ID cards is an invasive method of government control. In theory at least.If I thought it would work to beat crime, I would sign up to it. However, such a scheme will require a massive IT spend, and given sucessive governemnts' track records on IT projects, i don't hold out any hope of a UK system being any more effective than any of our European neighbours.
14. Mike Williams
Interesting that the pro-card lobby always results to name-calling of opponents: "paranoid", "something to hide". There's no clearer sign of the weakness of their arguments.
When we do hear the supposed advantages, there's no explanation of how this will work. ID cards will cut down on illegal immigration, for instance? How?
The fight against terrorism is another supposed reason for introducing them now, but I've yet to see anyone explain how ID cards might help. In fact it's hard to imagine a single scenario in which they'll be of any use at all.
These arguments are weak in the extreme, and fall far short of what's necessary. Which is to demonstrate not only that ID cards might have an effect on illegal immigration, say, but that they're the best and most cost-effective way of tackling the problem.
15. Raymond Moreton
I had a look at the web page
as was suggested and its only one persons opinion. It works in Germany and i never heard anyone complain there about ID cards and i am also Ex HMF Army and they worked for me.
http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/4698350.html
16. Simon Walker
Having spent over 10 years in the military and carried an ID card every day during that time, I find the idea that it will lead to a big brother society, just paranoid delusion.
Rather the military ID card (which carried a picture , name & signature) was counted as a form of ID in many establishments with as much validity as a passport, and far more than the drving licence did.
I fully support the introduction of public ID's, and think that the carrying of them should be made compulsory, that way people cannot give false names or other such things to escape proper law enforcement (perhaps this is where the idea it will cut down on terrorism comes from)
The idea that the governement will misuse the data neatly avoids the fact the as yet each little bit of the governemnt has it's own database of info which is jealously guarded, it will be a long time before the Civil Service allow some politician to change their empire and make it smaller.
17. Jay
ID cards can replace almost everything from debit cards/cash to driving licenses to library cards. I see no reason to be worried about this. Cars are soon to have tracking devices as standard and if you carry a mobile phone that's switched on you can already be located to within a few feet. And credit cards give anyone who is interested a good idea of your social life, monetary value and general movements around the city / country / world.
My only concern is how hopelessly lost you might be if you misplaced it! What about an implant in your hand which can be scanned (seriously! we do it to dogs!)?
Fraud will always exist but at least this kind of technology will take it out of the reach of the lowly benefits fraudster or illegal immigrant... which is where a huge portion of our wages goes to each month!
18. anonymous
It's strange that most Daily Mail reading totalitarian right-wingers seem to dismiss most things European. Why pick this one?
If you think only policeman who will be invading your privacy, think again. If you think it will only be the state, think again.
The problem is not an ID card, but the data behind it.
It is often quoted that all the ID cards deployed Europe are the same as the proposed UK ones. The UK cards will be far more invidious. In addition, most European counties give protection the thier citizen by a written constitution. As British subjects we have none.
The French ID card costs the bearer nothing, and it may be used as a European Passport. The British ID card will cost £77. One of the great lies is that the French card must be carried at all times; French law requires one to identify oneself to a policeman when asked - the ID card is the easiset way.
I am sure that Jews living in the Netherlands did not worry about putting their religion on the Dutch census forms before the war. This error allowed the Nazis to round them up without effort.
These cards may reduce unorganized benefit fraud, but thats about it. They will not stop illegal immigration or terrorism. The only people this will damage is law abiding members of the British public.
And as for Belgians commenting on British law and order - please.
And, we have nothing to worry about!
19. David Sparkes
Since when is 'belief' an adequate justification for a multi-billion pound investment? When did rational judgements give way to feelings?
Why would we want to invest such a large sum of money in a scheme that can make us, if anything, demonstrably less safe?
Why are we pandering to a media whose priority is selling issues and advertising rather than telling the truth? The problems that the ID cards are claimed to solve are a) provably not going to be solved by ID cards and b) in my opinion, blown vastly out of proportion by a media that uses fear and jealousy to sell copy.
That is not even to touch the civil liberty issue: we got rid of ID cards in the 50s for good reasons. Are we doomed to repeat the mistakes of history? Do we really want to create another class divide: those that do regularly get harassed for ID cards and those that don't (mediated by the particular brand of hatred that is the fashion of the day)? Promoting fear of the different really doesn't seem like progress and the whole issue runs counter to the ideas of a modern democratic society.
But, getting back to the main reason I'm opposed to them: they're a total waste of money.
20. Alan Stratton
When the authorities are given the power to demand production of ID cards in the name of "anti-terrorism", and you know they will be, they will most likely make it an offence for citizens to not carry ID, and impose on the spot fines for non-production.
What a fantastic money-spinner! I wonder if David Blunkett has thought of this.
21. anonymous
2 points
1) Do you have a passport?
2) Are you anonymous now?
22. Steve Watkins
I have said this before and will keep on saying it, ID cards are evil. Never forget that the Governement Department that will be in charge of this was responsible for the Passport mess a few years ago. Does such a department have the competence to run a much more complicated scheme? One person wrote that there were ID cards during WWII. That is true, but no one was forced to carry them, AND there was not then the ability to track the display of such cards. It will be too easy for a Government Department to track down which has been displayed or asked for display and where and thus to spy on us.
The real reason is that Governement Department wish to extend and their control of us and interfere even more with our lives. The truth of the matter is that there is far too much government in this country and ALL of it is of very poor quality. I want to see LESS Government, let us take the responsibility for our own lives and not have interfering meddlesomne overpaid bureaucrats telling us what to do.
23. Bernice
What are these people on!
a compulsory ID card run contrary to the ideal of a free democracy.
I do not for one instant beleve it will reduce in any way criminal activity from outright terrorisem, benifit fraud or ID theft it will just make these activities more sophisticated and less detectable.
The system will cost too much to administer.
Dispite whatever security, access propcols or whatever, the system will be open to abuse by criminals and athorities!
24. T J Gowan
Regarding ID cards
1. They are inevitable.
2. If you go abroad you have to have a passport which is an ID card with 20th century biomentics (Photograph); also if you have a bus or train season ticket an ID card is required.
3. If you are a law abiding citizen it will be a convenience and you have nothing to fear.
25. Ken Hall
What is the problem, to which, ID cards are the solution? and How will they solve that problem? and are they the best and most efficient and effective solution? and what safeguards will there be against abuse of the system?
Remember, Various Governments can and do issue their own agents with false ID's to commit their psy-ops against other nations, and to commit their terrorist actions against other nations and their own citizenry too.
ID cards not only will not, but cannot stop terrorism. only two things can stop terrorism. 1. enforced microchipping and monitoring of the entire global population within a strict totalitarian or fascist system. Or 2 treating EVERY human being with the respect he or she deserves and respecting their human rights and having a just and impartial criminal justice system to effectively deal with violations whether committed by individuals, groups or Governments.
ID cards serve no other purpose than to monitor the meek. This is another tool in the totalitarian toolkit and should be resisted.
26. anonymous
A few thoughts on the fingerprint used as a biometric.
One possible system would force the introduction of a national fingerprint database, every person of card carrying age would be in it, also automated fingerprint recognition systems would have to be used.
A national fingerprint database is something the police force has been after for many years but has been unable to either fund or think of a legal way of obtaining everybodies fingerprint.
It is unlikely that the above system could be made to work so lets think of a different one.
Another system would be to have your fingerprint compared with the one on the card and we won't need a central database.
Ignoring the minor detail that using a gel patch I can make my fingerprint look like anybody elses and defeat the system.
Fingerprint readers would have to be made more common than ATM machines indeed portable ones would need to be developed, so I guess this will be where the money goes for the card.
Still at the end of the day all I have is a piece of plastic that says I am me. A sufficiently determined forger will doubtless be able to duplicate this. Mistakes can and will be made at every level of the application system.
So where is the additional security ?
There is certainly a nice warm glow that the government is taking steps to keep us all safe in our beds, even if it does come with a price tag, and after all only criminals need to worry, don't they.
Nice warm glows don't stop planes flying into buildings though, strangely neither do identity cards.
So how exactly will this new form of proof of identity make us more secure?
Anybody ?
27. Mark SPLINTER
4 more points:
1)Is it ironic that a blind home secretary wants to watch over you with cameras and databases?
2)Do we live in a free and fair democracy with leaders that listen and mass-media that speak the truth?
3)Can you read this silicon article without laughing at the stupidity of the straw-poll method when applied to misinformed people?
4)Why do the pro-card people think that it's a strong argument to say they "can't see" what the problem is?
Open your eyes.
Here's my reason to oppose the introduction of ID Cards:
Myself and many thousands, nay millions, of other people, simply won't comply, whatever anyone says. So the system won't work, please spend the money on something else, preferably not a dome or a war. Thanks.
28. Andy
A question worth considering is those countries that have id cards do they actually have a lower crime rate or less immigration ..? ID cards are a 20th century solution its incredibly expensive and somewhat devisive. People may forget that Winston Churchill abolished ID cards due to social pressures in the 1950's.. why should it work now..?
29. Tanya Gibbs
Let's forget the liberty argument for a moment and look at the practicalities:
1) It will not sucessfully stop any of the activities it is supposed to. Criminally-minded people will continue to go about their criminal careers, dealing with people who won't care about "identity", and cards will be faked as required. ID cards have not stopped identity and benefit fraud in France; ID cards did not protect the people of Madrid. ID cards will not protect us from these things.
2) Biometric markers: Fingerprints are not proven to be unique, and the only large-scale study was deeply flawed. Iris scans are, at best, 90% accurate. Multipy this by the population of the UK, and you get a whole lot of false positives.
3) This system is going to cost many (UK) billions, money that could be better spent on the NHS or education. Add to this the trauma and incompetence generally associated with government IT projects, and you may as well not bother.
I object to the introduction of a massively flawed, prohibitively expensive system, and I object to the government actively seeking to hide or deny those flaws.
30. Jonas Quinn
I have no objections provided they do not abuse the information contained therein. Controllers of Data Protection ie The Inland Revenue, should not have access to these information the M15, M16 or any government associated/affiliated bodies as these bodies tend to abuse the information contained therein. Good example is to see how Singapore and Hong Kong cope with the issuance of ID cards
31. anonymous
The new driving licence is not unlike an ID card - with a photo and other details - most of us have one of these, most addresses are on PAF files, not much else to tell is there?!!
32. Hid Sugiura
Mark Splinter!!!
U say it won't work cos people like yourself would never comply.
Exactly why? I agree that it's naff having to PAY money for it (however much it is) but in what way will it track you and control you (as another poster has put it.)
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it will solve terrorism.
But how come u are so AGAINST it? Give me a concrete example of how it would affect you OR me if we had one.
(I'm not having a go btw, just curious as to how it would affect my civil liberties.)
33. anonymous
Popular or not what will they actually achieve? For those that missed the link earlier take a look at
http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0404.html
"But my primary objection isn't the totalitarian potential of national IDs, nor the likelihood that they'll create a whole immense new class of social and economic dislocations. Nor is it the opportunities they will create for colossal boondoggles by government contractors. My objection to the national ID card, at least for the purposes of this essay, is much simpler.
It won't work. It won't make us more secure. " Bruce Schneier
34. anonymous
In theory the use of Identity Cards is good but the fear is that, as with all other civil service led innovations, the result will be fiasco.
The prime concern is that if forging is technologically feasible, then the whole purpose if their introduction is negated and they will be no more than a very expensive white elephant supported by a phalanx of costly civil servants.
Far better to control and secure entry into and exit from this country with a suitable expansion of coastguard and immigration guards; the ability to securely detain those unlawfully in the country; combined with a requirement that every adult is able to prove identity if and when required.
35. anonymous
The current Crossmatch fingerprint technology being used would certainly allow for fake finger access....but you are forgetting ONE very important factor. The current "temporary" US VISIT setup has a human that stands beside you as you scan your finger into the system. They might just take exception to anyone attempting to use a fake "gel" finger...and send you on a trip to the slammer. When the systems begin to monitor people from remote terminals[EXIT KIOSKS], the US Government plans to add LIVENESS technology that can read the unique properties of LIVE SKIN as the scan takes place. Fake fingers WILL NOT PASS!
I suspect the UK will follow the USA's lead, and will require the same sort of SMART Identix biometric technology at remote scan sites.
You need to brush up on the current state of biometric technology. It's a great deal SMARTER than you think.
36. Mike Oldman
It would be nice to have a credit card sized ID instead of a passport. It would be even better if we could throw away all the loyalty cards, that clutter up our wallets and just use one card.
However, if it can be read, it can be forged, so there needs to be a back up system, so you can prove you are the genuine claimant to that identity, and get a replacement if you lose it.
Most importantly, it should not be an offence not to carry it!!!
37. anonymous
In favour:-
National Identity Cards by back door. EU legislation shortly requires the E111 to be in a plastic card format. As an individuals NHS number is issued at the registration of birth and the birth registration records details of the parents. This card is the same as an identity card.
38. Mark Thompson
Crown servant, Hampshire do I detect a little self interest in your solution, i.e. more jobs for the boys? Don't blame you I take a similarly self interested stance. If the government is going to splash its money around I see some possibly coming my way....
39. CPK Smithies
Mr Bramah's unpickable lock!
It does not surprise me that this technologically illiterate government should have the naivety to believe that a smartcard could serve as any sort of guarantee of personal identity. I am not even frightened any longer: it has been apparent for long enough already, as have its indifference to civil liberties and its cynical (not to say deceptive) use of fraudulent public consultation exercises in the pursuit of its totalitarian objectives.
I grieve, however, for those innocent people who will become the first victims of those who discover how to make (and make a thriving business from) fake ID cards. Remember that innocent 70-year-old man whom the CIA put in the slammer for a month or two on the pretext that he was one of America's "most wanted" criminals? We will have a lot more of those once the criminals learn how to duplicate OAPs' identity cards.
I also grieve for the taxpayers of tomorrow, who - once the current round of ID cards are proved to be a useless, deceptive waste of time - will be asked by the government of their day to spend still more billions on yet another uncrackable, tamper-proof ID card.
(And don't ask me how long they expect us to believe in chip-and-pin security - hasn't that one been cracked already?)
It's funny for the first thirty-five years, but after 70 I think it's going to get a bit boring. I reckon three score and ten is about right! I'd rather go and join Mr Joseph Bramah, find out what he thinks of it all. I wonder what he's working on now.
40. Graham Coles
If these cards are as good at combatting terrorism and illegal immigration as the Government says, how come the Americans dismissed them so readily; they have already shown the lengths to which they will trade their freedom for a small amount of security with the patriot act.
Perhaps they listened to some of the most renowned security experts who find a large number of flaws with such thinking.
41. Trevor Mendham
An interesting spin on the figures.
People need to remember that the numbers quoted refer only to the percentages of those who *do not oppose* ID cards. Only 60% of respondents fall into that category.
So that "staggering 82.9 per cent" is actually 82.9% of 60% - which equates to a far less staggering 49.7% of the total readership.
If you ask people who support ID Cards whether they think the cards will work, it is unsurprising that they say yes. What is most surprising about this poll is that one in three of those who support ID cards in theory don't believe they will work in practice.
(Ed note. You're quite right Trevor, but I think we were very open about the fact that these figures relate to those who support ID cards - and we mentioned that early in the article. We hear a lot of talk about 'Big Brother' and 24/7 monitoring and the anti- lobby are very vocal, but we suspected they were still the minority and wanted to get a sense of what the majority thinking was.)
42. L T WILLIAMS
I THINK ALL SHOULD AND WILL HAVE THE BIOMETRICCARD IN THE NEAR FUTURE THIS WILL TELL US WHO IS AND WHO IS NOT NO FAKE ID
43. anonymous
When you go to open a bank account, rent a flat, or hire a car, what do you get asked for? "A driving licence, and at least two forms of ID, at least one of which has a photo on it." There's a very good reason for this; more pieces of identity mean more confidence that you really are who you say you are.
Fast forward a few years: you've just been issued with your shiny new British Identity Card. But you still have to cart a passport round when you go abroad. And you still get asked for two or three pieces of identity when you go to the bank.
Those who talk about ID cards being a natural extension of the passport, and say that "well, we've already got ID cards in all but name, because we have passports with photos, driving licences with photos, and all manner of credit, debit and loyalty cards slushing around" are missing the point. Why do we need another ID card when we've got so much ID already; and is it not a good thing to have identity in depth? Trying to consolidate identity into one easily-lost, highly valuable and undoubtedly forgeable bit of plastic will actually make matters worse.
And another thing: yes, we all have passports (well, I guess most of us do). Do we carry them around with us to identify ourselves? No. Why not? Because it would be too damned inconvenient (and expensive) if they got lost or stolen. So they all stay nice and safe in a drawer at home until we go abroad.
If (when?) we all get ID cards I can see exactly the same thing happening. Which makes something of a mockery of the entire ID card system - because in my filing cabinet I already have two or three pieces of ID, at least one of which has a photo on, today. Passport, driving licence, recent utility bill, and so on.
Now, anyone care to explain why I should still want an ID card?
44. Knut Boehnert
Coming from Germany I am used to the idea that by law I am required to carry means if ID with me - everywhere, all the time. Since I was 16 years old.
There was the same upheaval in the media as it is here when the standard passport (comparable to the plastic card itself as in the British passport) was made machine readable.
The changes were implemented nonetheless. Although the police has the formal right to conduct ID verification on the spot this hasn't lead to a massive Big Brother show.
So unless there will be transmitters built into the passport to track me down I don't see the problem.
45. A. Freeman
Hid Sugiura, it is not necessarily what is on the card but the fact that the card is compulsory (and you are going to have to pay for it) and that you can be asked to produce it on demand by the authorities.
This to me impinges on my freedom, my freedom to be anonymous if I so choose, my freedom to walk down a street minding my own business and not be asked to prove who I am.
On the card and the info on it. Who will have access to that info? What info exactly be on it (both initially and in later stages)???
ID cards are compulsory in a number of European countries and they have not stopped crime, fraud, terrorism or any number of other things which they are being touted to do in this country.
They are certainly not going to stop terrorism, which would appear to be the main reason this government is giving for them, so stop and ask yourself why is this government so keen on them?????
46. Fred Perkins
Pragmatism please, not paranoia.
Of course there are concerns that organised crime, identity theft, undemocratic regimes, heavy-handed government and sloppy government systems all pose threats. We'll never solve them all. But, meantime, it's pretty important that when required, we are all able to prove and establish our true identity as far as possible.
It's crazy in these frightening times that the authorities, airlines and even retailers have only rudimentary and archaic mechanisms to establish the identity of someone they are dealing with.
Even flawed democracy requires that we accept constraints and obligations to preserve our safety. We desperately need a better means of establishing identity than we have now.
Let's surely get over the idea that we have some right to live in a complex society, but keep our identities a close personal secret.
After 9/11, I for one vowed I would choose to fly only on airlines which took the best possible steps to establish the identity of every passenger on a flight with me. I accept nobody will get it perfect, but I certainly want them to try.
47. Diane Wicks
As from May 1st ALL OF US if applying for a job need to provide documents to prove we are entitled to work in the UK. The documents you provide BEFORE being employed will be photocopied. If you have a passport this will not be a problem, otherwise you will need a FULL birth certificate AND proof of your Nat. Insurance No. if you are British. This will affect all UK (as well as non UK) citizens seeking work. A Passport is the ONLY document of identity proof that is acceptable on it's own without other documentation being required. If you do not have a passport life is about to become difficult for all of us who work. Therefore I say we ALREADY HAVE ID cards by way of our passports. A card would be handier to carry around!
48. Philip Heywood
My biggest concern is that with over 5000 passports being lost annualy by the passport office and with over 1 million more NI numbers in use than people eligible to work then can we trust the government/civil service to be able to manage id cards! These documents are already supposed to be unique! Criminals will get hold of forged id cards anyway; they seem to manage to get hold of firearms so......
49. Anon
Is the anti-ID card lobby aware of how much information on us is already available? Every time a credit/debit card is used or a mobile phone call made a usage trail is created.
These are two minor examples of the plethora of data avaialable.
If ID cards cut out the huge amount of fraud and slow down the "grey" ecomony for which we all pay, then go ahead.
As already highlighted, why be concerned if you have nothing to hide?
50. anonymous
Biometrics or no this new ID will be no better and no worse than all the other forms of id I already have.
I have yet to see any explanation of exactly how this new form of identification will prevent terrorism, illegal immigration or exploitation of of the NHS & social services.
I think that if I am going to be required to spend £77 of my money, then someone should be giving me a very good reason and not just waving their hands and spouting emotive phrases like anti terrorism.
51. Anne Taylor
I am totally for a full-blown ID card because it is absurd that in a country where most things are paid for with plastic and where fraud is therefore such a high risk, there should not be a card or document carrying an individual's photo, signature, address and nationality. How else can you ensure some sort of security? It is totally spurious to argue that Big Brother would be watching us if we adopted the ID card: he already is, our every move is recorded somewhere, we are one CCTV system or another several hundred times a day, our spending is tracked by credit control organisations, our names and addresses appear on thousands of market research lists, and so on. So what's the big deal with the ID card? Don't we also like the security that this offers us? If we go missing, if we have an accident, if anything happens to us, we are protected by the fact that our details are on a police database and our nearest and dearest will be contacted. I think this fear of being controlled because we have proper identification is media hype and ignores the benefits and the logical need for it.
52. anonymous
I would like an ID card - provided it is no more than that. Not a data-bank of personal information. Not capable of recording anything once it has been issued.
53. Margaret Allison
One of the assumptions which seems to be made amongst those opposed to ID cards is that we already have enough means of identification and don't need any more. I would like to summarise my own story to illustrate why I would support ID cards. Some years ago I left a religious order (an Anglican convent) and due to the fact that I did not have a bank account, property or passport I found it extremely difficult to prove who I was and that I actually existed! I began to feel like a non-person and was caught up in a Kafka-esque scenario of being unable to obtain identification because I couldn't identify myself. If identity cards had been in existence at that time, my life would definitely have been easier.
54. anonymous
The only people who will worry about I/D cards are the people with something to worry about. Law abiding, tax paying citizens already have I/D with national insurance nos, drivers licence, passport, credit cards etc etc and if it cuts down the ammount of imigrants, travellers etc I will be the first to embrace it.
55. Mr.Y.K.Raja
I am willing to prove that the only way to restore honesty and deter anyone from getting tempted to misuse our data is to use smart ID Key system, which will activate printer at transaction point to instantly print small ID Stickers, which will have photo of person’s face and name printed on them. To validate transactions all we have to do is to apply ID sticker to any document in question and countersign. This system will deter anyone from getting tempted to use stolen, forged and fake documents since their identity will get exposed in the event of crime, which police will have option to expose on “Wanted for questioning” page in national papers. Pre-printed ID stickers bought from retailers will eliminate the need to use any equipment when concluding transaction. You must have realised that this honesty restoring system will not rely on ID documents and databases and yet will deter honest from getting tempted to become dishonest and the same time force dishonest to become honest. Fraud is increasing because Hi-Tech is making signature system more and more unreliable. Only ID sticker system will make signature system reliable and foolproof and hence deter fraud in every sector of the industry with minimal effort, cost and fuss. I hope that policymakers and the public will exploit this universal honesty restoring system before it is too late to stop a fraud boom.
56. Herbie Martin
How will it infringe your liberty?
Already Ryanair bump people from flights who didn't think they needed a passport for an internal flight. An ID card will give the excuse to many more organisations to prevent you entering, getting service etc (and I mean hotels, night clubs, train stations etc etc) because some bureaucratic jobsworth decides you obviously have something to hide if you've left your card back at the office.
It will soon become compulsory to carry one (otherwise what possible point do they have?) ie it will be ILLEGAL to even walk down the street without it. So those who "have nothing to fear" will become criminals.
It will actually make fraud EASIER. How? Because criminals with forged or stolen cards will be believed more readily by officials, bank tellers etc.
And don't believe that biometrics are the answer. Most places that will ask for your card will not have the equipment or the time to actually use these features.
So we are about to spend BILLIONS, that could actually be used constructively on real policemen for example, on a pointless project that will not do a thing about terrorism or crime. Instead, it will merely annoy and inconvenience the law abiding.
Nothing to fear?
57. Mr.Y.K.Raja
Hi-Tech has made it too simple for anyone to produce good fake of any document we care to name including national ID cards. In other words national ID cards will make bad problems worse.
58. Andy McKee
If I was presented this as an IT project I would worry deeply about the skills of those presenting the project...
It has no clear business objectives, I defy any project manager to justify "it will make us safer". Similar ambitious projects have failed or cost considerably more than is being suggested. Project risks (privact concerns to name one) have apparently disappeared according to a main project sponsor (Tony Blair)!
Where are the measurable returns for a not insubstantial investment (from an organisation with a history of failed projects)?
Where is the risk analysis? It is inconceivable that any project manager would say the risk has gone because there are other bigger risks! That beggers belief - the privacy risks are still there, just the project environment has changed.
David Sparkes and Geoffrey Darnton make an excellent points on this noticeboard. This project risks more than wasting a lot of money, see Geoffrey Darnton's comment.
It smacks of a poor understanding of the issues and technology by the main project sponsors. We have ID (called passports) that contain biometric data (called photographs) which specific crimes will these new ID cards prevent? How much will they save? What actions have been taken in other areas to mitigate the main risks of this project?
Half baked techno babble and bland assurances just don't cut it.
59. Rick Fuggle
Even though I am (in principal) in favour of ID cards, I am also concerned about the escalating costs of getting and maintaining the card. I have no doubt that once the card with ALL our data is held within the governments database it will be shipped of to India or some other cheaper processing place (possibly Iraq to help them rebuild their country by creating jobs.)thereby helping other countries learn more about us.
The idea that it is an infringement of our civil liberties we have to carry driving licences, credit cards, if we have a season ticket to travel a photo ID card and possibly an entry or ID card to enter your workplace so why not combine some of this into one card?
60. anonymous
It is quite frightening for foreigners who arrive in the UK to take up legitimate residency, to realise that the whole of the personal identity system is in the control of the banking sector and the credit rating agencies: as soon as has a bank account, one exists. No bank account, no existence. This fundamental aspect of a citizen's life would be much better handled by a government institution than by the notoriously inefficient and socially irresponsible money lobby. It is time the UK comes out of the dark ages.
61. Graham Payne
In the UK we are one of the few countries that don't have some form of ID. National Insurance cards with a biometric information would be a good way to ease people into a National ID card scheme. All systems can be abused if someone has enough time on there hands to crack them but a ID card system can be used to help saves lives such via a organ donor system. If someone tragically dies it would be a waste for their organs not to be used to help relieve the suffering of others that are on transplant waiting lists. I think most people know of someone who needs some form of transplant and the biometric information could help them if DNA information was stored on a National Database
62. anonymous
These cards will be an expensive waste of money. Do countries that have ID cards have any less terrorism, crime or benefit fraud than countries without them? Then what about the "feature creep" that has already happened. These started as "entitlement" cards which you would only need to claim benefits. Now they are ID cards that we will have to carry once 80% of the population has been issued with them.
And it's going to cost us atleast £3billion, at the current government estimate.
63. Patrick Boys
I am all in favour of ID cards after all I already have one, my driving licence has my picture and home address on it, so whats the difference. We either believe we live in a free democracy where we have control or if not, then it is up to us all to change it so we do. The problem of course is knowing if the ID card is valid or a forgery and controlling this.
64. anonymous
Oh for Pete's sake, people. The mark of the Beast is either on the hand or in the forhead...and if ID cards ever turn into an implant, I might be inclined to join the nay-sayers. Paranoia just doesn't begin to describe it!
Being an Ex-pat South African, I've had an ID card all my life - and yet, the SA Government still haven't been able to track me from one city to another (as evidenced by official notices being sent to the wrong address) nor have they been able to find me here in the UK! Unless you do something to warrent a search party, I hardly think any bogeymen are going to come knocking on your door.
65. Dov Eilani
i have had identity cards for many years in various countries, i believe it would be good for the uk to have them i do not thinki they would cause as much abuse as is profisied. the people who are against it must have something to hide.
66. anonymous
Only crooks are opposed to ID cards. I am very envious of my EU colleagues who can travel all over Europe with an ID card but we british have to have a passport. When you get to the Airport and find you havent got six months left on the validity so they wont let you board the plane that is when you realise how stupid we are not to have identity cards.
67. Andy W
a quote from one of the posts
"The only people who will worry about I/D cards are the people with something to worry about. Law abiding, tax paying citizens already have I/D with national insurance nos, drivers licence, passport, credit cards etc etc and if it cuts down the ammount of imigrants, travellers etc I will be the first to embrace it."
1. the only people to worry etc. Yes, and that should be everyone because of the wider implications.
2.Law abiding, tax paying citizens already have I/D with national insurance nos, drivers licence, passport, credit cards etc etc.
Yes they do as have the non-law abiding among us. Do you honestly believe that a new id card system is not going to be open to fraud and misuse. If so - I suggest you take of your rose tinted specs.
3. and if it cuts down the ammount of imigrants, travellers etc .
Just how is it going to do that??
When are people going to stop listening to the spin about stopping terrorism, controlling fraud etc that the government gives out and actually start thinking for themselves about what this ID card scam will actually do.
Precisely nothing except be the forerunner to greater governmental control over the population
68. Paranoid
Margaret Allison - sorry but that is just so much rubbish.
Copy of birth certificate, Passport application, couple of signatures of people to say the picture is you and bobs your auntie - you have a passport. What is so hard about that?
and if you need to rush it along it can all be done in a few days.
69. JP
Why not. If the info on the card is what I would pass on in a handshake or interview who cares! Lets be honest the control of the data will be a shambles, forgery will occur, there will be great epics in the press. This is just another step in some subversive control aims by delusional groups. The card will not control my mind or soul, and I don’t think it will control yours.
70. anonymous
A ID card gives you proof of who you are. With it you will be able to prove without question you are who you say you are.
Except when the cards forged!!!
It scares me when these systems are applied, it's the same as fingerprint or retina scan ID. When the security system is cracked how do you change your DNA/Eyes/Fingers IDcard.
Maybe one way to deal with the criminal element is to increase the punishment to a level where crime is not worth the risk.
71. anonymous
Although those in favour are correct to think that police and the government do not currently have resources or time to monitor people, the key word here is "currently".
Advocating the introduction of an instrument or instruments that have the potential to infringe one's privacy is foolish, to say the least - especially given the open, honest and democratic ways in which recent governments have introduced all sorts of legislation to stop people's dissent.
Current government aren't honest or brave enough to hold referendum's when they KNOW that the people's votes would go against what they want. Do you really want to give them the right to all sorts of information about you.
Remember, that if, as is claimed, they don't have the time to monitor us now, there is nothing to say they will have the time to deal with each and every person they "suspect" of dishonesty, terrorism etc. etc. on the basis of some fallible and incomplete set of statistics generated by software from one of the numerous companies who have failed them in the past.
Be careful of what you are asking for. In agreeing to such a blatant infringement of personal privacies, you will be getting exactly what you are complaining about now - more black marketeering to bypass such systems, more taxation (a. because governments will now be aware of what you need most and will definitely levy for those necessities and b. to uphold this ludicrous system).
For once, stop this American-style gut reaction to all that you perceive is wrong in this country, and use the good old British rationale to deal with the cause and not the symptom.
I despair!
72. anonymous
I already have my identity cards.....passport, driving license etc. I see no harm in carrying this.
My problem would lie with the security of the data storage. Will it be stored in India with the UK Identity Card Call Centre where labour is cheaper??
73. anonymous
I have to say that I find the whole debate about ID cards absolutely astounding. The case against is based entirely on hypothetical issues which have no basis in fact whatsoever. I have lived in Luxembourg for the last 20 years and here (like in the vast majority...if not all) EU countries ID cards are obligatory and a perfectly normal and accepted administrative necessity. They do not impose any "constraints" on me and my family's life, other perhaps than the need to have it with you. Indeed they can be extremely useful. It allows me to draw money easily anywhere in Europe, it replaces a passport for ALL intra-EU travel (at least in the Schengen area), it allows my children to prove they cannot be refused service at a cafe or bar, ensures access to medical care in case of emergency etc. etc. But most important of all, they provide a measure of security that greatly assists the police and security forces in their fight against crime and terror. Not that we have yet had a lot of that in Luxembourg yet, but we do get our fair share of illegal immigration and drugs trafficking.
I suppose the only down side I can think of is illustrated by the following story. I often have to explain to colleagues here that the UK does not have any ID cards. A Belgian colleague of mine, after asking all the usual practical questions and the inevitable "Why on earth not?" (to which the only explanation I have ever found is from my father "We were so happy to tear up the ID card at the end of the 2nd World War it has become a symbol of its end!") Finally my friend looked at me slightly bemused and said, "My esteem for the British Police has just increased enormously! How on earth do they ever manage to solve any crimes?" If you were to introduce ID cards in the UK, I suppose the respect for the constabulary would inexorably have to diminish!
74. Richard Sarson
The 60% pro ID-card vote is a democratic mandate for the government to stop faffing about and go ahead. If it can get that amount of votes from the silicon.com readership, not one might imagine the most amenable lot for this kind of government initiative, then the pro-vote in the country at large is probably 70-80%.
Go for it Tony.
75. anonymous
Anybody opposed to ID cards must have something to hide.
76. Bill Ward
2 reasons why I'm opposed to ID cards.
1. Present government information systems are inaccurate and the data misused. Existing systems need to be brought brought up to a satisfactory standard and efficiently administered before we introduce yet another mismanaged system. For example the DVLA (both personal details and vehicle details) and the Inland Revenue. I can quote examples of errors affecting me for both these bodies.
2. ID cards will simply be used as a substitute for more stringent examination and will give a false confidence - any serious criminal will be able to obtain false cards which will in turn make it even less likely that he/she will be picked up.
77. Michael Price
Card:yes. Pay: no. I am in favour of ID cards but would not pay for one. We pay taxes for this purpose. Surely the benefits of reduced fraud in all areas would offset the initial outlay.
78. anonymous
With respect to the last speaker, ID cards will help the fight against terrorism as we would be able to track people better and known terror suspects could be identified earlier - perhaps preventing terrorist attrocities such as 9/11 and the Madrid bombing.
Intelligence is our biggest weapon against terrorism - as evidenced on numerous occasions by the SAS and other security services in the war against the PIRA (Gibraltor "Death on the Rock"). If a piece of plastic that holds data that can be found in thousands of easier places, such as BT data lists and Experian & Equifax, can help then I am all for it.
This is not a civil liberties arguement unless you accept that it is a persons civil liberty to exercise their desire to kill inocent people.
I am all for anything that will keep innocents safe from terrorists and other fanatics while not affecting democracy. ID cards do not effect democracy in the same way as passports do not.
79. Glanville Carleton
If you think ID cards are an unecessary burden, just try applying for a firearms licence and see what hassle you get.
And of course, all these new regulations have really controlled gun crime....not!
80. Fred Perkins
Won't Comply? Fair enough, but don't complain...
To those who use the argument that an ID card system would fail because many would not comply, there's an easy answer. You needn't necessarily be compelled to have a card, at least initially. But if you don't, you won't be able to open a bank account; vote; sit any examinations; go overseas or fly anywhere ; take a driving test; go home after any criminal or driving offence requiring ID; draw any benefits; see a doctor.....
Then after a year or so and the rest of us begin to get comfortable with the benefits and convenience, compulsion can be introduced for the few recalcitrants, who by then will be making the majority of us very nervous.
81. Fred Perkins
Won't Comply? Fair enough, but don't complain...
To those who use the argument that an ID card system would fail because many would not comply, there's an easy answer. You needn't necessarily be compelled to have a card, at least initially. But if you don't, you won't be able to open a bank account; vote; sit any examinations; go overseas or fly anywhere ; take a driving test; go home after any criminal or driving offence requiring ID; draw any benefits; see a doctor.....
Then after a year or so and the rest of us begin to get comfortable with the benefits and convenience, compulsion can be introduced for the few recalcitrants, who by then will be making the majority of us very nervous.
82. Still anti ID card
"With respect to the last speaker, ID cards will help the fight against terrorism as we would be able to track people better and known terror suspects could be identified earlier - perhaps preventing terrorist attrocities such as 9/11 and the Madrid bombing. "
So, lets see what you are saying. Having an id card would have prevented the 9/11 incident or the Madrid bombings.?????
Exactly how?
The 9/11 terrorists had been in the US perfectly legally, if they had been in the UK they would NOT have had ID cards - so again please explain how a UK citizen having an id card is going to stop a foreign national entering the UK legally then blowing up parliament.
Madrid - they have had id cards in Spain for years. Still have regular terrorist attacks though.
What about our own home grown terrorists. If they are currently UK citizens then they will get their id card, won't make them any less a terrorist or threat will it now.
Come on you pro's, one of you must be able to come up with something better.
83. Karl
Im not happy about this new id system, all your personal details being kept on a database, being passed around different departments, i work in the IT industry and i know how easy it is for a skilled hacker to get into nearly any system, it isnt safe, and a cost of up £77, its a joke, why should people have to pay for something they dont even want, im not in favour, and i have nothing to hide, i just want to protect my own privacy, and freedom, we are just working our way to a tagging system, can the chips in these i'd cards be tracked, big brother, here we come.
84. anonymous
what happens to illegal immigrants? some of them are very hard workers who deserves to stay can the govt help them some are professionals who works illegaly to survive someare also going to uni to upgrade themselves blunket should give ageneral amnesty and then tighten immigration at the port of entry
85. anonymous
I think that the ID card system is a good idea and should hold as much information as it can (finger prints, eye scans and everybodys genetic makeup) this way the only people who would be against this card would be terrist and people who commit crime.
86. Henry
I completely disagree with UK ID cards - not because they will be able to identify me (heck, I've got a passport, and drivers license that already does that); but because I will be forced to identify myself.
Why should the government be able to force me to identify myself. I am a law abiding citizen, not a criminal, and as such I have a right to privacy and go to about my own business however I like. Having an ID card makes me think of Nazi Germany - where a person was forced to present papers when travelling, when shopping, even just walking down the street.
Is this what will happen? Of course it is, it is the whole point! Should I be challenged just to see my doctor, go into the bank, or get on a bus? I will be - it's already coming.
87. Jake
ID card legitimise terrorism. Let's think, how will they be issued. You'll probably go into the Post Office with passport and drivers license in hand, and submit yourself to biometric scanners. Then you'll receive your card.
Of course, the fake passport and drivers license you have, plus the biometric scans will confirm you are someone else - with no question because the police (dumb as they are) etc., will accept them with no questions.
This will mean that terrorists will pass unhindered (from other countries and from our own), ID theft will increase exponentially, and ordinary, law abiding citizens lives will be ruined.
I can see it now, you did go to Canary Wharf before the plane crashed into it - your ID card scan proves it - straight to jail. I feel much safer already.
88. Karl
I keep seeing the argument "only people that have something to hide are against the card", how on earth does that work, the whole idea of having our own life, is that we are able to keep things private, i dont want to be part of some "collective", its human right to have privacy. I dont have anything to hide at all, i just want to be able to keep parts of my own life, my own.
89. Antony Norris
The religious angle, every debate needs one.
Jay from Coventry is talking about the enevitable outcome, which of course will take a long time to come, but really at the end of the day it makes practical sense to embed it into people. It would stop theft of cards and fraud, loss of cards, it would ensure precise location of suspected criminals and terrorists, location of missing people, it would make it fool proof, that is a far better argument than the current one and ultimately that's what the ID cards are trying to achieve. However this where it all goes biblical, how can a book written nearly 2000 years ago be so clear about being able to trade and live with a number embedded in people.
You can easily dismiss these kinds of things as religious rantings, but first at least read it - Revelation 13:16-17 - then make a choice, but don't dismiss it blindly.
www.gospelcom.net for an online bible.
90. Dave
Anonymous Electronics Engineer.
I am no crook and vehemently oppose the introduction of ID cards.
91. anonymous
In answer to an earlier comment, I would like to address the enrollment process for biometrics "once again", since some people still don't understand.
When the enrollment process begins your fingerprints will be submitted to Interpol's IAFIS system to find out if you are on the terrorist watch list, which will prevent the UK from issuing biometric ID's to known terrorists. The US and the UK have taken both fingerprint and photo data from all known terrorist hideouts and camps. The biometric ID card program will keep these known terrorists from slipping through the system, and possibly becoming a part of more "Sleeper Cells". We can not screen for unknown terrorists, but we can certainly screen for the ones we do know about. To ignore this known terrorist database because citizens don't understand how the biometric system works, would be a crime in itself. The real need at this time is to educate the public on how these systems will be used, and what safeguards are in place to protect citizen privacy.
No biometric system will be perfect...but neither is the lock on your front door. I don't see anyone removing their door locks because a thief can slip through a window.
Biometric enrollment methods will adapt and improve just as the first door locks did. Biometrics are the best defense, and they are the law.
Our countries should always utilize the most up to date security methods to safeguard it citizens.
We must not move backward on security measures, and we MUST screen for known terrorists until there are all dead or captured. This may take decades.
92. Innocent untill Proven guilty
All this bio-metric dat, facial scans, fingerprints, retinal scans, DNA, all this will be on access to the the government, i dont trust the government, it is too corrupt, looking to protect itselfl, lokking to make money anyway possible, making it compulsory to have one is wrong, i already own a passport and other forms of id, but all they have is basic info that is needed, i am not against the card fullly, but am against the cost, and the amount of info needed.
93. Mark Hearne
RFID chips currently cost 25 pence.
In five years time they will be 10 a penny. They will be put on the ID cards initially to facilitate entry to government buildings, a move that will be welcomed by our overblown 'civil service' - a major misnomer if ever their was one.
Building a tracking system would be incredibly cheap although if the government is buying it will be incredibly expensive.
A real ID card would be welcome on price alone as it would mean we could fire all the benifits office staff, half the police force, 3/4 of the Home Office, all the security/receptionists/greeters asking for our name and address everytime we ask about a government service nevermind actually using it.
The civil service should not be allowed to vote as they have a vested interest in the government staying the same.
Current members of the civil service subsidised -with our money- Saddam Hussein (Export Credit Garantee) for years. They should be fired and their houses sold to recoup some of the money.This would act as a deterant to the currant lot dealing with the Iranians and the Isrealis.
So before we the people have a government ID card to go along with our other IDs, it is worth remembering that it is a GOVERNMENT ID number,on their database which we will not have access to. The card only needs to carry one piece of information THAT GOVERNMENT ID number. This will be very easy to link to every other database the government has on us. And that is actually why the government wants it.
When the government gives ID numbers to all the civil servants and a webpage to go with that number containing links to their job description, salary contract,contact details,budgets, annual reports,their files, etc.,etc., then and only then should we consider ID cards for the general population.
Lets stop the dog's tail becoming really fat and weighing the poor dog down so much he can hardly move.
Stop the tail wagging the dog.
This fat tail can't wag the dog anyway.
94. Graham
Back to reality folks;
The Police haven't got enough staff to combat most crimes.
The government can't implement an IT system to do Congestion charges effectively.
Those who worry about Big Brother ought to think more about "barely conceived sibling" as there is no practical way the government is going to be able to track down or follow anyone in the near future.
The only places they will be useful will be as an entitlement card to determine whether a service is free or not to the holder (such as the NHS).
Please stop complaining about infringement of civil liberties - be thankful you live somewhere that has any liberties left at all - and if you don't like it here with an ID card, then move somewhere else where you can roam free, unchecked by government, and be blown away by a terrorist more easily, or subsidise a load of spongers who use your tax dollars to pay for their lifestyle.
95. William
I have nothing to hide, why should I be frightened of ID card, At sometime it might even be used to alibi me to protect from being accused of a crime.
96. anonymous
Database information sharing is the real worry, not ID cards per se. The amount of information which the government holds on computers is growing, as is the amount of information which can be shared between government departments. Do you want the Inland Revenue to know the state of your health in general, or the likelihood of you inheriting an illness? If you think that the Data Protection Act is going to let you access all the information the government holds on you, or prevent others accessing your data, you had better read the small print.
97. A. Nonymous
60% of 1500 respondants is 900 people.
So because 900 people out of Britians 60,000,000+ citizens think it's a good idea that's a majority vote for it? (Ed note. I think you'll find Labour didn't receive more than 30 million votes at the last general election - your point is a little absurd. 900 is a majority of the 'turn out' though. You'll find a sample of 1,500 people is a reasonable basis for research of this kind. While it obviously isn't totally conclusive it provides a fair indication of people's reactions to the proposed scheme.)
98. Graham Tattersall
Considering that the Home Office has CONSISTENTLY REFUSED to provide the funds for a National Computer System for our police forces, I cannot believe that they will eventually stump up the money for Blunkett's National ID Card Scheme, which will cost WELL OVER FIVE HUNDRED TIMES AS MUCH !
We all ALREADY carry around with us the "Perfect ID Card" ....... the DNA in our blood !
Unlike ANY "manufactured" ID card that Blunkett may dream up, this form of ID CANNOT be forged or cloned, and since you "cannot leave your DNA at home, or in your "other jacket" etc.," or any of the other MILLIONS of excuses that people will think up for not being able to show Blunkett's proposed ID card, when challenged, DNA is the OBVIOUS material to use for ID purposes.
Further more, there is no work (or cost) involved in kitting people out with their "DNA ID", since all of us, even new-born babies, already have our "DNA" Identification.
Because it is IMPOSSIBLE for a human being to not be in possession of their DNA, it is the ideal means for identifying "missing persons", even when the police only have partial bodies, semi-decomposed bodies, or corpses that have been seriously damaged to render tracing through finger prints and dental records impossible.
Blunkett's proposed ID card system is totally un-workable, because it will cost FAR TOO MUCH to set up and run, and no matter how "secure" his cards may be, ANY manufactured card can ALWAYS be forged or cloned.
I am VERY ANGRY that Tens of Millions of Pounds of TAXPAYERS MONEY (that's right, its you and me who are paying for this "experiment") is being wasted on the ID Card Trial, when the project as it stands is bound to be scrapped.
The proposed National ID Card and the restrictions it will force upon the citizens of this country, will contribute greatly to the destruction of the very FREEDOM that is supposed to make "Western Democracy" such an attractive alternative to the oppressive societies found in other countries.
99. Ruprecht
Graham...what ARE you on about??
100. Mike Mitchell
To Knut Boehnert: In Germany you have the Bundesverfassungsgericht (Federal Constitutional Court), the B?rliches Gesetzbuch and a lot more that is written down to codify the constitutional relationship between citizen and state. Here in the UK you do not. I should have thought that you especially, being aware as I am of Germany's tragic episode in the 1930s when the Nazi regime used IBM Hollerith technology to round up so-called enemies of the state, including Gypsies, homosexuals and dissidents, should be viscerally opposed to the type of ID card being proposed in Britain. What Hollerith punch cards could do, the ID card with RFID, a programmable chip, iris scan, fingerprint, photo, barcode, and a massive, leaky database driving it, will be able to do a thousand times better, making totalitarianism as easy as pressing a button in Whitehall or Cheltenham.
Even if the current Government does not intend to practise tyranny on us at the moment, there are far fewer safeguards in our system of government than in the Federal Republic of Germany. Also, Germans are much more politically aware and more likely to protest against any blanket infringement of their privacy, having not forgotten their last two totalitarian states, one of which was only closed down fifteen years ago when the Stasi - surely the most ominous and persistent tyrant in all of Europe, if not the world, - was finally terminated.
Let everyone read Anna Funder's Stasiland and then see whether they want more state control of the citizenry in Britain.
101. Mike Mitchell
To Graham Payne: I cannot think of a more costly and complex exercise than producing 40 million ID cards that WILL be compulsory for the benefit of a disappearingly small (in relation to the whole) number of transplant victims! By all means have a card of some kind to facilitate organ donorship, but the huge expense of a national ID card and the massive infringement of our civil liberties associate with it must not be wasted on such altruistic motives. In any case, some people may not want their organs to be reused. Should they be removed anyway? Do our bodies belong to the State?
102. Mike Mitchell
To Anonymous, Luxembourg: Sorry, but I have to laugh! You said: "...Not that we have yet had a lot of that in Luxembourg yet, but we do get our fair share of illegal immigration and drugs trafficking."
So ID cards have not been able to curtail illegal immigration and drugs trafficking, then! Also, I suspect that Luxembourg in line with most other continental countries, has a WRITTEN constitution. Britain is pretty unique in NOT having one!
103. Chris Brooks
Why do a considerable number who are pro ID cards contributing to this forum do so anonomously?
104. anonymous
It's disappointing that so few here seem to understand the civil liberties concerns. Trusting the State is frankly a fairly weird response to 20th century history.
105. Russell
With an ID Card comes a number. A unique number it identifies you and only you from the 60 million or so other UK citizens. Every computer system in the UK (and elsewhere) will begin to record your number, and very quickly it will be universally known. Every interaction that you have with a computer, from making a cash withdrawl to surfing the net,will create a record, and underpinning that record will be your NID number. Link these separate systems (a little noticed element of the Bill is that the Government reserves to itself the right to do this)and you have? Total surveillance! Blunkett's preferred term is a "full audit trail" of any individual they decide to pick on. Still got nothing to hide?
106. anonymous
Why shouldn't I have something to hide?
107. wendy jones
id cards wont last they will soon become chips http://www.4verichip.com/index.htm
then this will definatley be what it says in the bible revelation then will christian have the right to refuse because of there beliefs