By Andy McCue, 17 May 2004 13:10
NEWS Over a third of participants in silicon.com's annual Skills Survey claim to have been victims of ageism but this week's CIO Jury disputed that claim.
silicon.com has just launched a campaign against ageism in IT on the back of our survey findings and we asked our panel of CIOs and IT directors if ageism is a problem in IT. The results were far from conclusive with seven saying 'no' and five saying 'yes'.
One argument was that while ageism is a problem it is rife throughout society and not just IT. Neil Hammond, IT director at British Sugar said: "I think the problem is a general one of attitudes to ageism and non specific to IT."
Gavin Whatrup, IT director at Delaney, Lund, Knox, Warren & Partners added: "I don't think as an industry we are unique in this but we tend to suffer from, and believe in our own publicity, painting IT as a young person's game. Where experience and communication skills are highly valued, we shoot ourselves in the foot by excluding those who are more likely to have both."
Hugo Smith, IT director at online spread betting firm Sporting Index, agreed ageism is a problem but said it is not widespread.
"It is very dependant on the size, age and culture of the company itself, but there is no consistency. Clearly many older IT professionals will be very much more experienced in traditional technologies, but may not be as up to speed with the latest technologies, or the rate of change."
But the verdict swung in favour of the 'no' vote with others on the jury maintaining that a balanced workforce is more important than any token gestures to age when recruiting.
Frank Coyle, IT director at John Menzies Distribution, said ageism is just an easy excuse for individuals who fail to get a new job or promotion.
"The real reason that this appears to be an issue is the large number of experienced IT personnel who are approaching retirement and the surge of good, high quality IT people who are available, keen to prove their worth, but have not had the opportunities that the post war 'baby boomers' had," he said.
Graham Benson, IS director and CIO at Screwfix Direct, said: "As the profession matures, it is imperative that we continue to balance raw enthusiasm with the expertise that is generally gained via exposure to a variety of experiences. As with any team, the right balance is the key to success, irrespective of age."
One explanation for the issue of ageism cropping up on a regular basis is that it is related to the ups and downs of the economy, according to Bill Gibbons, CIO at Abbey Group.
"This seems to be a cyclical activity and debate. In times of downturn one of the more obvious opportunities to reduce costs and headcount, without pain, is consensual retirements. In time of growth, those with knowledge and experience - the old - are key contributors to development and growth."
Are our CIOs right or do you have a different experience? Let us know by emailing editorial@silicon.com to let us know your story.
This week's CIO Jury wasÂ…
Jeremy Acklam, IT Director, Virgin Trains
Graham Benson, Information Services Director and CIO, Screwfix Direct
Frank Coyle, IT Director, John Menzies Distribution
Bill Gibbons, CIO, Abbey Group
Neil Hammond, IT Director, British Sugar
David Jemitus, Head of IT, Government Planning Portal
Mark Lichtenhein, Director of IT and New Media, The PGA European Tour
Hugo Smith, IT Director, Sporting Index
Pete Smith, Director of IT and Telecoms, Inmarsat
Sinclair Stockman, CIO, BT
Gavin Whatrup, IT Director, Delaney, Lund, Knox, Warren & Partners
Graham Yellowley, Director of Technology, Tokyo-Mitsubishi
Take our latest reader poll on ageism in IT here.
If you are a CIO, IT director or equivalent at a large or small company in the private or public sector and want to be part of silicon.com's CIO Jury pool, or you know an IT chief who should be, then drop us a line at editorial@silicon.com
Comments
There are 22 comments. Join the discussion
1. anonymous
Being sub 35, I don't suffer from Ageism. However, consider that IT is a young industry, negative perspective on experienced older generation is a step in the wrong direction. Many of the older generation have traditional training and engineering principles instilled in them. Perhaps if we learnt more from these experienced individuals we wouldn't have so many large IT project failures (Ref: BCS paper on Complex IT Projects).
2. anonymous
Being > 55 and having been in this "young" industry for almost 35 years, I feel it's about time we stopped thinking of this as a "young" industry in most senses of that term! That model will, perforce, change over the next 10-15 years as more and more of us who joined in the boom times of the 70's approach retirement and the age profile of the industry starts to look more like other occupations.
Of course there is rapid change and it can be hard for anyone, independent of age, to keep up with that. Today's novel approach or new technology is tomorrow's (wrongly maligned!) "legacy" system. Often those who are locked into skills for ageing technologies are there precisely because their employers do not help to manage change through continuous training.
Is there ageism in IT - yes, of course there is, just as there is in most occupations. Many employers take narrow view, unless constrained to do otherwise, and are reluctant to invest training in somebody they estimate will be gone in a few years because probable retirement looms.
At lesser, but mature, ages, there are incorrect assumptions about lack of flexibility, lack of willingness to learn and change. This is ridiculous, I have no problem debating even technical issues with colleagues young enough to be my children!
3. anonymous
Not ageism per se, but indirectly. Previous experience of having learned perhaps 8 or 9 languages and 30/40 tools/versions, plus methodologies is discounted. Nor is experience of the business or general IT principles, but on the ability to code in the latest version of the latest tool. Minimal training budgets contribute.
4. anonymous
Putting the converse viewpoint, many redundant people are looking for senior jobs at the same level and making no effort to refresh their skill. As the senior market continues to shrink, those out of the loop need to relearn how to do the jobs of their juniors, and compete further down the tree. Those in the loop need to make sure that their technical skills are maintained
5. Paul Cullen
I have been out of work for nearly 10 months and have applied for many jobs for which I am suitably qualified. Although it is difficult to prove that agism is responsible for my lack of interviews, I am 45, it is easy to believe that this may be a factor. With pension schemes struggling to maintain sufficient funds to finance forthcoming retirement commitments, it is no wonder that employers would rather have people paying into the funds for longer periods, rather than becoming a burden on it within the next twenty years.
6. anonymous
I was made redundant at the age of 45 three years ago and have been totally unable to get a permanent job since. I could count the number of interviews on one hand. I have obtained countless certifications during the past months (CCNP, CCSP, CCDP, MCSE, LPIC 1&2, SCSA, CIW SEC ANALYST) but it makes no difference and I can only put it all down to ageism.
It might be different if there were lots of jobs out there but seems employers view age as a relativly negative factor and will avoid older employees given the choice - and they invariably do have the choice of plenty of younger candidates. Furthermore, my CV probably never gets to most employers due to the unquestionably ageist attitude of most employment agencies.
7. Dave Hunter
I was turned down for a job that I could do standing on my head with both arms tied behind my back and the reason given was the company only wanted someone with 2 years experience even when I said I was willing to work for the rate offered I was still unacceptable. I was 51 years old and the hourly rate was £25. The reason they didn't want me was I was too old and too experienced and they felt I would jump ship as soon as a more lucrative contract came along. I have never in 30 years in IT jumped ship, I have rarely declined to renew a contract but I have never jumped ship I suppose I must blame my parents for instilling a sense of honesty and the belief that your word is your bond into me. I have now aajusted my birthdate and experience by 10 years in the hope that I may be able to get a contract but I don't hold my breath.
Anticipating that my life in IT is now over I now concentrate on my kart racing team in a sport where you can't have to much experience. If any of you reading this fancy your chances as the next Jenson Button have a look at www.blacksheepracing.com give me a call and I'll see what I can do.
8. anonymous
Being a mature IT person I have found that if I apply for an IT position and leave my age off the application I will get a response from the company advertising the position, however when they then ask my age the response that I get is "that is not a problem" and that is the last I will hear from that company. However if I apply and include my age on the application then I will never hear from the advertiser.
9. anonymous
I Quote "Frank Coyle, IT director at John Menzies Distribution, said ageism is just an easy excuse for individuals who fail to get a new job or promotion. "
Frank Coyle is a cynical idiot.
10. Stephen Poore
"Clearly many older IT professionals will be very much more experienced in traditional technologies, but may not be as up to speed with the latest technologies, or the rate of change."
Or to put it another way.
"Clearly many younger IT professionals may not be as up to speed with the latest technologies, or the rate of change."
Which demonstrates the unfortunate attitude of some in IT.
11. Roger P Murphy
I disagree totally with the misinformation portrayed by CIO (whoever they are).
It is true that ageism (ie; prejudice towards older people purely on the basis of their biological, chronological process), is rampant within all manifestations of British industry.
Ageism should be scorned nd despised just as much as racism.
In fact ageism is an insidious form of prejudice which effectively destroys the life chances of people who through no fault of their own happen to "age", when people are excluded because of the colour of their skin, why should people be exclude because of their age??
It is hypocracy by employers to defer the spotlight from themselves rather than demonstrate quantifiably that they do employ people by experience, qualifications and aptitude. (A level playing field would be a step in the right direction).
By the CIO attempting to deflect the issue away from themselves is typically a defensive response, it is also untrue to say that older people are less skilled in IT, they are simply not given the chance to prove their true worth.
12. anonymous
I was made redundant last October when my company closed in the UK.
Despite having over 30 years experience at all levels in Sales and Account Management, in Financial, Retail and IT markets, having run and grown significant global outsource contracts and delivered over £100m in new business for companies such as C&W, AT&T, Fujitsu, one can rarely even get an interview for Account Management/Account Director job now.
The most common comment from recruiters being, 'they are really looking for younger, more aggressive people.
So it would appear that 'young aggression' is at a greater premium than 'experienced and track record'.
13. anonymous
Let's get real here. "Ageism" has got very little to do with age...it's all about money and that fact that, having been around for a bit indivuals have pushed their salary levels to the limit or beyond. I'm not in IT, but I shouldn't think it's any different from the field I was in, where it came to a point where I was got rid of to make way from a yes, younger, but more important CHEAPER person.
14. anonymous
I noticed that you did not carry the ages of the members of the jury. A quick study of their ages would give an indication whether ageism is rife or otherwise in their companies.
15. misceng
Having read comments here and in other discussions on silicon.com I have noted that the entries by mature contributors are in good English. The comments in some technical discussions are so badly written and spelled that I fear for the quality of work these people create. If a person cannot communicate clearly how does he/she create quality work or understand the requirements of the project? Is this the reason so many IT projects fail?
16. anonymous
Ageism is a problem in IT. I attended a short course over 10 years ago where the HR Manager of a division of ICL said that she had a problem, which was to get rid of about 100 mainframe developers average age 40 and to replace them with PC developers. She had obviously not heard of re-training! I have worked in IT almost 40 years and I still enjoy it. However, I now suffer from the reluctance to pay me the rate for the job because my employer thinks I am unable to find alternative employment. Ageism comes in many forms.
17. anonymous
I am a 30 year old IT professional, currently considering my career options. I have only been in IT for five and a half years. I currently work in technical architecture, but have been on front line support, an intranet developer, a sys admin and a systems manager prior to this role.
I have been offered a new role back in "hands-on" server support, but when I mentioned to a colleague I wanted to get back "to my roots", he discouraged me, telling me that I wasn't getting any younger, and that my options were limited because there was only so long people would listen to technical advice from someone like me before they became too old, and not to take that path but to stay in architecture. I was very surprised to hear this attitude, not least as he is in his late fifties (I think!) and charging over six hundred pounds a day, and we are still listening to him. However I am female, I don't know if this also has an impact?
18. Grey hair
It's a real problem. I have 1st order expertise in three of the modern fields.
When I looked for a development job after I had turned 40, with a resume emphasising the past ten years, thus making me appear younger, I found I was getting interviews but not the jobs.
This was the first time I had ever experienced this. I actually had a few people tell me they mainly had young teams there, implying this would be a problem for me. If so, it's news to me.
Ageism is made possible by the excessive importing of temporary workers.
19. Ted Howl
I now believe employers want young people who'll not question some of the daft ideas that are thrown at them. Once you've been in IT for a few years and seen various notions and theories come in and out of fashion a certain scepticsm creeps in. I think that's healthy but I'm sure most employers don't see it that way.
20. anonymous
It's not a problem only if you're young. When I was layed off in Austin in 2000, it was common knowledge on the street that age determined the first cut.
21. anonymous
It's easy to blame things like age for not getting work, but, assuming a level playing field with qualifications and experience, i.e. that you have applied for something you are qualified to do, the likely explanation for not getting a job is either the interviewer didn't click with you, or clicked with you but had a better candidate.
22. Vic Knight
Of course ageism exists in IT - in a big, big way. One of the main reasons though is how it has become trendy to promote young people to positions of responsibility often beyond that which their level of life experience dictates they can hold. Hence, they are very often embarassed about employing older people who would spot their shortcomnings very quickly. Basically, the natural order of things has become completely distorted by trendy ideas, put forward by younger people whose world collapses if their next Smartie is the wrong colour! I despair of the UK as a whole anyway, with IT leading the way! At 44, and as much as I'd love to stay in IT (and retrain at my own expense) what's the point when so many idiot agencies and HR departments filter CV's by age?