By Andy McCue, 17 November 2004 16:40
NEWS Home Secretary David Blunkett claimed store loyalty cards present a bigger threat to privacy than the government's ID card scheme and told opponents of the controversial project to "get real" about 'Big Brother' surveillance accusations.
Speaking at an Institute of Public Policy Research (IPPR) ID card conference in London today, Blunkett insisted that ID cards will combat terrorism, illegal working and organised crime. And despite concerns from opponents about the cost of the scheme, Blunkett said it will pay for itself in many ways.
"Hundreds of millions of pounds a year are drawn down [on the NHS] by people who don't have the right to. Anyone who is accessing care should be able to prove their identity," he said.
Blunkett argued that ID cards will prevent terrorists using multiple identities and get rid of the UK's "sweatshop sub-economy" by tackling the problem of illegal immigration and illegal employment.
But his strongest criticism was aimed at those who oppose ID cards on privacy grounds.
"There is a suspicion that if government is doing it there must be something wrong. But if the private sector is doing it with loyalty cards it is OK," he said.
Holding up a Nectar card, Blunkett claimed store loyalty cards are much more intrusive and leave a more detailed data trail than government ID cards ever would.
"Store loyalty cards keep continuously updated details such as the size of a person's household, whether they're employed or not and the ages of their children, besides what they like to eat, where and how often they shop and even what brand of toothpaste they use."
However, speaking to journalists after his presentation, Blunkett admitted that these firms operate the loyalty cards within the UK data protection laws and said he wasn't personally worried about any of the information held on him.
Blunkett also acknowledged the scale of the project and said that if it does go wrong he will go down in history as "one of the biggest political failures Britain has ever produced".
Comments
There are 44 comments. Join the discussion
1. anonymous
Mr. Blunkett has failed to understand the crux of the argument here. Loyalty cards are optional.
2. anonymous
Most people would be for a ID card, but not giving fingerprints or DNA as it would be open to abuse(police state) so Photo and retina scan with basis info
Name,DOB,NHS Number,Passport details,photo,
3. Knut Boehnert
Loyalty besides being optional also
don't cost me anything and are accessible to law enforcement agencies as regulated by law.
Mr Blunkett proposes an international accessible database (with probably a poor security judging from former government projects) to which my access is restricted.
And the personal data that is collected about me in a loyalty scheme I can enforce to be deleted as a citizen.
Can I do this with the data from the ID card?
4. Jim Whitaker
Anonymous is exactly right. Why is the Home Secretary being allowed to get away with ignoring/lying about this?
5. Peter Goddard
Mr Blunkett is right: the information is already there: like it or not. ID cards will make life easier for us all and stop a huge amount of fraud: Yes spongers be aware!
6. anonymous
I trust Tescos because I know what they want, I do not trust Blunkett because his public reasoning for us having ID cards are false. And most importantly, Blunkett is a politician and who in their right mind is going to believe anything a politician says.
7. Roger Huffadine
Dead bodies everywhere then......
-paraphrase-
If you loose your ID card - like old folk WILL - then you can go rot in hell 'cos we are not going to treat you.
Interesting stance from a Labour politician
8. Peter Goddard
Mr Blunkett is right: the information is already there: like it or not. ID cards will make life easier for us all and stop a huge amount of fraud: Yes spongers be aware!
9. Steven Watkins
Anonymous of UK states that 'Blunkett has failed to understand the crux of the argument'. This is slightly incorrect. Blunkett does not WANT to understand the crux of the argument. Blunkett has decided to introduce these evil things and will stop at nothing to get his way.
10. anonymous
If I didn't think Blunkett was off in La-la land yet this would do it for me! Has he, perhaps, considered the fact that a) I don't have to pay a bean for a loyalty card, b) I can cut it up anytime I want, c) I'm not compelled to use one, or indeed even have one, and d) as far as Tesco is concerned I'm a 60 yr old grandmother who lives in Croydon and spends a bit on her grandchildren?
Admittedly the last point is one that the UK ID card may share with Tesco as ID data is only as good as is given to the Home Office and they, really, have no way of verifying it on asylum seekers, terrorists and other "nefarious" types the card was originally meant to regulate.
Hmmm, so looks like another way for a controlling gov't to monitor ostensibly private citizens. Odd then that the "person" in the street doesn't really care...
Lee
(father of 1 who lives somewhat north of Croydon)
11. anonymous
Couple of points:
Sainsbury's can send me lots of junk mail using their data.
The government can fine me arrest me freeze my assets and throw me in jail. They control my access to health care, employment and benefits and my children's access to education
In a couple of years time they'll be doing all these things to people by proxy from records kept on their super database.
The NHS will have access to your tax records, and the DVLA to your health records. The inland revenue will have access to everything.
Sainsbury's can have my data all they want to do is sell me beans.
12. Tim Haines
If ID cards are going to save the economy 'hundreds of millions of pounds a year' then perhaps the Government might like to consider providing them FREE? Indeed, they could show us what a great idea they are by PAYING some of these savings back to us as an incentive to apply for a card!!
13. Craig
I'll echo the comments here about loyalty cards being optional, but I also want to make a point about cost. He says ID cards are going to save us tax payers millions so why the heck do we have to pay for them?
14. Andrew Robb
Loyalty cards are optional, pay for themselves, improve service (with the information they gather), are protected by the DPA and save me money.
If ID cards will pay for themselves many times over, let those government departments fund them. Or is Mr B lying?
How many hundreds of millions of pounds will it cost to incorporate ID card hardware and software into government systems?
15. anonymous
If people's only reason against ID cards is that the government is bringing them in then wake up. With today's society we need something like this to stop our economy being swamped by immigrants and maybe get back the great in great britian. Are we that naive that we believe the government dont already have all our details?
16. Neil Postlethwaite
Loyalty cards are a threat to the ID scheme more like as they actually work. Maybe Kommandant Blunkett should award the ID card contract to Tesco's or Nectar
17. anonymous
Is it me ? I thought that store cards were optional ?
Blunkett is a numpty.
18. Peter Goddard
Mr Blunkett is right: the information is already there: like it or not. ID cards will make life easier for us all and stop a huge amount of fraud: Yes spongers be aware!
19. Brian Burkill
Surely, if you have to pay for an ID card, then that implies choice of ownership.
OK, I choose not to have one, by virtue of the fact that I am not going to pay for one.
I choose to have a driving license, I pay for it. I choose to have a passport, I pay for it. Therefore, if I have to pay for a national ID card, I CHOOSE not to have one.
How on earth are they going to enforce people paying for something they do not want. But then, think of council and income tax.
According to my figures, 26% of my gross income goes to the government. That means I work 1.5 days a week for absolutely nothing.
Also, on store cards such as Tescos and Nectar, I never ever give correct details. I even change the spelling of my surname. Virtually every detail I give is incorrect (according to Tescos, I am 153 years old).
One is unable to do such with an ID card, and my fear is targetting for non legitimate purposes.
For the purpose of tackling crime etc, I am all for it. From a privacy point of view, I am not.
I do not trust this government, I did not vote for this government, and I do not like this government. Blair would make a good salesman, as he has the ability to convince people he is speaking the truth even when he is lying through his back teeth.
20. Carl Grainger
It is you who fails to understand. If a person requires access or assistance/support from a public funded service, it's logical to have them provide a form of easily verifiable identify card in today's transient society. All these old wingers banging on about privacy, do my head in. Are they living in the same world? Why would they trust commercial credit providers and retailers and yet have a fit over a governing body who they can vote out. Only people getting something for nought or who have something sinister to hide, should be alarmed about the introduction of ID cards. Bring it on Blunkett, the faster the better and sideline all these poor state terrorised, undertrodden "help me, I'm persecuted" luddites. In a few years without their IDs they wont be heard, counted or noticed.
21. Richard
Answering honestly is optional:
When applying for most "loyalty" cards or web registrations, you normally have the choice of limiting or "confusing" your details. This limits potential intrusion by commercial companies.
(Until 9/11, my "country" was often Afghanistan; the country usually next below USA in those long boring web selection lists, and unlikely to need a valid ZIP code. Armenia now seems a safer bet.)
However, Blunkett will demand that we answer all his questions honestly and fully.
Presumably, the government ID database will be managed by the lowest bidding private company.
Government has a very poor record of maintaining accurate data and protecting it from unauthorised people.
22. Karen Challinor
The first person to be denied healthcare on the grounds that they couldn't prove their identity when they were actually entitled to it will cause rioting in the streets.
Or will we be denied access to the media without an ID card ?
23. z80hastings
As usual it will run many times over budget costing us, the tax payer, far more than originally intended.
Like every single government IT project thats announced it will also fail to work. A database this size when they cant even get the DVLA database, NI database, etc. to hold correct data?
Help fight terrorism/criminals? Blunket is a knob.
24. David Parsons
Three things....
1) I don't have any store loyalty cards by choice.
2) I've never read such bull from Blunkett
3) Interesting that you don't seem to need an ID card to pay Tax... how on earth do they do it?
25. Hugh Dent
All very well for Blunkett to say this but not everyone has a loyalty card, they are not compulsory and they don't cost anything, let alone an arm and a leg.
26. Graham Coles
ID cards do not and will not counter terrorism. I believe it has already been pointed out by numerous, highly-esteemed security professionals the world over.
They did nothing to prevent the Madrid train bombings and will simply be carried by the terrorists of tomorrow without identifying them as such.
The Home Secretary should try listening for a change. For some reason we appear to base our extremely expensive failures on myth and guess what mugs end up paying for the billions of wasted pounds? Mr Taxpayer foots the bill.
Interesting first from any Government; now Blunkett brings you ... the stupidity tax. Non-participants presumably being forced to comply by being fined large sums of money. Interesting way of running an inept voluntary scheme.
And no, they don’t prevent illegal immigration either, probably make it much harder to detect if anything when they get forged.
27. Paul Nedas
Can anyone identify at least one major IT project initiated by the UK Government that can be judged as a success?
28. Peter Hope
The Sooner the Better!
I spend 10's of thousands a year in Taxes and feel it is only right that those who benefit from my payments can prove they are entitiled to receive the money. How soon can we get this scheme working?
29. anonymous
They all keep harping on about how these cards are going to combat terrorism... can somone explain how a piece of plastic is going to protect me from a terrorists bomb? How will it stop a plane from being flown into a building? How will it stop poisoned gas from being pumped into the Underground? It seems to me that the Government is doing it's usual job of giving us all a little information / dis-information about something that they want to keep secret. They can stick their ID cards...
30. Andrew McKee
Loyalty cards are voluntary and cannot be used to access my medical records, employment history, tax records, social security records, voting history, membership of political parties...
31. anonymous
1 = compulsary ID cards
2 = chipped credit/debit cards - available only by "swiping" ID card
3 = RFID - graded levels for luxury/essential/healthy/unhealthy items
4 = compulsary no cash purchasing - plastic only
5 = social security benefits credited to special benefits credit cards
6 = Government collects spending data via chipped credit cards
7 = Inland Revenue compares data to check spending to income
8 = Lifestyle tax based on RFID grading
9 = RFID data used to define lifestyle - healthy/unhealthy - passed on to NHS compulsory health insurance unit
9 = benefit claiments monitored
10 = black economy defeated
.... who knows...? 10/20 years time!
32. Lars Eny
You have ALL missed the point.
ID cards are to be BIOMETRIC.
When (not if) they are forged, you will be unable to revoke your ID (like you can at the moment if your bank card is cloned). You will be stuck forever with the label of doubt.
No-one (government, police, banks) will EVER trust you again.
Blunkett doesn't care about this little detail, but you certainly will.
33. anonymous
i HAVE LIVED IN eUROPE AND KNOW THAT id CARDS ARE THE SLIPPERY SLOPE TO fASCISM. tHE fREEST COUNTRY IN eUROPE hOLLAND DOES NOT HAVE THEM BUT THE MOST REGIMENTED bELGIUM INSISTS THAT YOU CARRY IT AT ALL TIMES. wHEN SHE WAS A LITTLE GIRL, MY WIFE WAS FINMED FOR NOT CARRYING ONE AND SHE WAS ONLY 14 YEARS OLD AT THE TIME. aLL NECESSARY ID COULD BE ON A SOCIAL SECURITY CARD, AND SINCE MOST OF US DO NOT CLAIM BENEFITS COULD BE LEFT IN A DRAWER. hOWEVER IT WILL NOT WORRY ME, i HAVE DECIDED THAT THIS IS NOT THE COUNTRY i WAS BORN IN, AND AM LEAVING FOR cANADA SHORTLY.
34. Ken Hall
You missed a few,
1 = compulsary ID cards
2 = chipped credit/debit cards - available only by "swiping" ID card
3 = RFID - graded levels for luxury/essential/healthy/unhealthy items
4 = compulsary no cash purchasing - plastic only
5 = social security benefits credited to special benefits credit cards
6 = Government collects spending data via chipped credit cards
7 = Inland Revenue compares data to check spending to income
8 = Lifestyle tax based on RFID grading
9 = RFID data used to define lifestyle - healthy/unhealthy - passed on to NHS compulsory health insurance unit
9 = benefit claiments monitored
10 = black economy defeated.
I partly agree with your views. using technology to defeat crime is good. Monitoring known criminals is good, but you ommitted known risks to freedom and liberty that this ID card scheme presents.
11 = All purchases, (travel, memberships, political affilliations, books, dvd's, web memberships, sexual, religious, political, social, educational, other activities etc) monitored via RFID Chips and a secret political profile of purchaser constructed.
12 = Entitlements will be based on your profile.
13 = If you dissent from the government view of acceptable lifestyle, your profile will be flagged as dangerous.
Flags could be based on your 'destination of travel/political affiliation/memberships of groups or memberships of websites/reading material/sexual orientation/race/religious belief/social position/occupation/social habits/hobbies/etc'
14 = News items, "The National Identity / Citizen Entitlement (N.I.C.E.) program has uncovered more terrorists who would harm the governemnt of the UK today, they have been rounded up and have been detained at a secure location. Have a NICE day citizens."
15 = welcome to no black economy fascist Britain.
You can only guarentee that this scenario will not happen if you refuse their ID cards and implanted chips.
Once these chips or cards schemes are a reality, it is up to the powers that be to decide what to do with them.
Free citizens will have lost the chance to defeat a future tyranny.
Remember Hitler was democratically elected.
35. Neil Postlethwaite
Deny benefits, deny healthcare, deny this, deny that. Obviously Kommandant Blunkett and Blair's henchmen are not God-fearing Good Samaritan's !!!!
Suppose that's why millions are dying annually in Africa, whilst the UK is gearing up for a billion pound self indulgent XMAS blowout on food and
Made in China crap. I'm sure the UK spends more on cat and dog food than on non-handout development aid to the 3rd world.
Shame on you all !!!
36. danny
The store loyalty card scheme is voluntary therefore I can choose to have one or not, the id scheme will be compulsary therefore I either pay for one or go to prison and even then it would be forced on me.
37. mustafa
Anonymous
Country: leicester (uk)
Occupation: ict technicain
Comments: If people's only reason against ID cards is that the government is bringing them in then wake up. With today's society we need something like this to stop our economy being swamped by immigrants and maybe get back the great in great britian. Are we that naive that we believe the government dont already have all our details?
So how exactly will id cards stop the economy from being swamped? and how will this id card put the great back into great britain? We already know that the government have all our details thats why we are trying to work out whats the benefit of having a card. You probrably would be shocked to hear that immigrants do work AND do want to work if only the govenment would change the rules to let them work. In 20 years time it will be the immigrants working here that will put the great back into britain. If you think thats rubbish you need to research the german economy
38. immigrant worker
Can anyone identify at least one major IT project initiated by the UK Government that can be judged as a success?
But of course! that should be easy, There was the erm, no that was no good, how about the csa? naw that over ran,that military database?nope ok the sex offenders register, I'm sure that was sort of successful afterall it wasn't the govenments fault that bloke left the country, hold on I've got it the new driving licence, see told you it would be easy
39. anonymous
The ID card issue is a bit the abortion issue - it's difficult to remain unemotional about it and nobody will ever agree on it.
I would like to make just two points of my own. Supporters of the ID card claim that it will somehow reduce crime, illegal employment and illegal immigration and any number of other social ills in the UK. Bullshit.
Over here in Germany the crime rate is bloody horrific and the ID card system has never had any effect on it at all. Ditto the illegal employment and immigration problem. (The same applies elsewhere in Continental Europe.) If employers want to employ someone illegally, they're going to do so, ID card system or not. And a national ID system has never stopped illegal immigration to Germany (for some reason we still seem to have a reputation as a prosperous country!).
So what's the solution? In my humble opinion the proposed expenditure (current prognosis: 3.1 million pounds, and it'll probably be more) would be put to better use by employing more police and Labour/Immigration/Income Revenue inspectors to sniff out the crims, frauds and other illegals. In other words, we're talking about boots on the ground and better equipment. (Ask any intelligence operative about the value of "Humint".)
It's difficult to work out Blunkett's real reasons for wanting this system. My guess is technology-based political power. Over the last 40-50 years science and technology have invented all this new electronic equipment and other wondrous processes that allow us to do things like digitally record human biometrics & other information on hard disk. Knowledge, as we all know, is power. And power, as any politician and civil servant will tell you is a buzz (I know - I used to be a civil servant before I woke up). In other words, Blunkett is introducing this National Identifcation & ID card system because it will give the state more power over the population and because the recording of all this information about the British population is now technically possible.
It's a bit like my Theory of the Dog's Penis, which goes like this:
Q: Why does a dog lick it's dick?
A: Because it can.
Get the idea?
My second point is a response to Carl Grainger, who claimed that those with nothing to hide have nothing to fear from the National Identification &
ID card system.
Again, this is bullshit. The violation of our privacy will ultimately prove to be a violation of our legitimate (underlined) anonymity from the state and its minions. While the government does have a lot of information on us (income tax, medical records etc.), for the most part this is compartmentalised, which is the way it should be.
If you have nothing to hide, Carl, then why don't you ask your bank send you your bank statements in a transparent envelope: Ditto your investment company with the details of your dividends or interest payments. Tell you what - if you have nothing to hide, why don't you send me these details? I promise I won't pass them on! Get the idea?
If you really believe that your personal medical and other personal details will be safe on a National Indentification Register, then you still have a lot of growing up to do, mate. And bloody fast at that.
As another reader of this column (Richard) said, "Government has a very poor record of maintaining accurate data and protecting it from unauthorised people." He couldn't be more right.
We need to get one thing very clear. The proposed ID card system for the UK will facilitate and increase the grip of the state on the citizen. That, and nothing else.
Bob
40. Phil Tarrant
Don't worry ... the ID card system will be designed and set up by EDS !! That'll be alright then .. and relax ..
41. Peter Leatherland
Mr Blunkett says that ID cards are no worse than loyalty cards. The difference is though you don't have to own a loyalty card, they are free, and tesco won't threaten you with a £1000 fine and ultimatley jail if you refuse to have one!
42. Pete
Imagine a state like in 1984 (or many other sci fi books films) where the governmetn controls us, imagine your wherebaouts being constantly monitored and recorded, your buying habbits logged, or perhaps your itchy head form that damned chip in it!
It sounds stupid, people would never let our government create a state like that.. or would we, one single jump to a police state would be opposed, but if it was brought in gradually it is far more plauseable, each tiny erosion of our freedom being taken away and justified by a seemingly valid arguement, like saftey or security with the downside only being a small loss of freedom. There is a way to stop people from adding these small losses of freedom together to prevent them from realising the overall big loss of freedom.
The simple way to do this is to separate these losses from each other by making it a gradual process.
The only answer is to stop it now and see the bigger picture and fight against these small losses of freedom
43. B. Menon
All those against would line up silently, and apply for one, when they reach a country where the ID card system works beautifully, apparently threatening straight living people. Wake up, and let the government do its best to minimise (not eliminate) the nonsense that honest people have to put up with. ID cards do WORK!!!!
44. Jm
Loyalty Cards are a good idea... ID cards are a good idea to but it ID cards could get frauded