By Steve Ranger, 26 October 2005 15:35
NEWS
Short-sighted recruitment consultants are to blame for much of the ageism that plagues the IT industry, according to the comments of silicon.com readers.
According to a survey published earlier this week, half of IT workers interviewed said they had suffered age discrimination when applying for jobs. Two out five said their age had hindered promotion. And one in five admitted that age influenced their recruitment decisions.
The silicon.com story and leader article on the subject created a big response from readers.
IT consultant Sarah said: "I do think that employers are missing a trick with older IT professionals in the same way that companies like B&Q have realised the benefits of recruiting older staff.
"There are plenty of skilled IT folks out there over 40 who have the relavent skills. I do feel that the real problem to ageism in IT though is recruitment consultants who are very often a barrier to employers."
And one anonymous reader added: "I don't believe that it's the IT managers who won't hire older workers. I believe that many such applicants are filtered out by the recruitment firms - staffed by young, inexperienced, non-IT qualified hacks!"
Datacomms engineer Andrew Harcourt revealed that even workers in their thirties can be hit by ageism: "I was at an interview. The interviewer said 'I see you are 31. Don't you think that is a bit old for this job?'. I replied: 'If you think I am too old for this job, that is your problem, not mine' and walked out."
In response another reader, infrastructure architect Steve Berry, pointed out: "If ageism was a genuinely valid [reason] for obsoleting personnel then: (1) Fire Bill Gates (2) Fire Larry Ellison and (3) Fire Steve Jobs... The only reason ageism exists is as a 'filter/screener' for those to use when it's convenient for them to do so."
Reader Malcolm Wilson wrote that at one employment agency he was asked "How someone of my age (55) knows so much about IT in the creative industry. Before my departure I replied, 'Because I'm the same generation as Gates & Jobs, you clueless prat.' It seems that you are dead in the water at 25 these days. Whatever. I plan to work until my forehead hits the keyboard... "
But one reader blamed bosses and recruiters: "I think that it is very simple: The managers are young and they do not hire people that are older than themself - or within about two years of their age. I have seen this for the past 18 years. Also, the staff who handle recruitment (often agencies) are all young."
Teleworking may be the answer, said another reader: "Perhaps we need a home-worker broadband-based IT development environment so that age is not visible to manager, colleague or client, and only the work products count. This sounds a bit like offshore development but much simpler to set up."
Comments
There are 31 comments. Join the discussion
1. anonymous
Personally, I am looking forward to the Age Discrimination Legislation which is law next year.
1. Will be applying for jobs as Junior Doctor
2. Down to Homebase or the garden centre on Wednesday's for my OAP discount.
Turned down? see you in court for age discrimination. Cuts both ways.
I expect many beligerant OAP's are rubbing their hands in glee !!!
Unexpected Consequences of poorly thought out popularist legislation, as per Human Rights Act.
2. Chris Greenslade
In spite of twenty years of experience, I had to give up seeking “employment” in my mid-forties. It had become obvious that both recruitment agencies and internal HR departments were just adding me to their lists in order to impress with the number of people they had processed. However, I never got to meet the real decision makers.
So, for the past twenty years I have been successfully earning my living as an independent consultant and trainer. Even then I am constantly meeting people who take one look at my grey hair and who classify me as someone who needs his grandchildren to program the video recorder for him. When will these people learn that not only are people of my generation capable of understanding current techniques and methods, but we are the people who developed them from scratch and, therefore, have the greatest understanding of them?
3. Mike Gardiner
Its a complex subject, and your correspondents illustrate some of the different facets of the problem. Factors include environmental, cultural, budgetary, candidate, recruiter, and employer considerations, with each situation where ageism comes up containing a different mix.
The cost is measured in lost skilled resource, and frustrated older prospective job applicants. There is no easy cure, because while overt ageism might be somewhat inhibited by legislation, covert ageism cannot.
Candidates can best help themselves by looking their career squarely in the eye more often, and ensuring that their career plan makes sense and is being tuned to meet the constant shifts in the industry. There used to be an add for a big pensions company which showed a smiling 20 year old making too little contribution, running through to a miserable 60 year old reaping the consequences. IT careers can be subject to a similar pattern.
4. Tony Nicholson
In the early days of the birth (1983) of what we know as IT, I was a founder member of BICC Data Networks, I was in such demand that recruiters contacting me to either be put forward by a consultant, or former collegues have recomending me for positions in their new companies. but once you pass 45 forget it. I worked for a dotcom and was the oldest in the company and all the time they were building new call centers I was in great demand, but when the bubble burst in 2001 it was on your bike. I was offered an interview by the BBC a couple of years ago and the day before it was cancelled. When I challenged this I was told the their retirement policy called for employees to retire at 60 and they felt it wasn't worth me joining and being "Trained". I was going in as an IT purchasing specialist for God sake, and certainly didn't neet training. Now I have recruitment consultants ring asking if they can put me forward for this or that job and never hear from them again. So I think the comment by "anonymous reader" recruitment firms - staffed by young, inexperienced, non-IT qualified hacks. is not quite true. as they companies doing the recruiting have an age block with comments like "My DAD/GRANDDAD is your age. That really puts you in your place
5. simon mallett
Well said all. Age has nothing to do with creativity or innovation, you've either got it or not. Sadly most haven't, what is worse, most think they have and will fight to defend their right to be the most innovative person on the planet! 5 years ago I was fighting to develop my company's SEO strategy. My older boss he was 50, I was 45, was supportive. The younger management in their 20s challenged it as a waste of time.
6. anonymous
Why does everyone blame the recruitment consultant? We are not all 25 year olds who went into recruitment rather than estate agency. I am 50+ have a degree in computing and have worked in recruitment for 20+ years. Ageism will be illegal by the end of 2006 and that should have a profound impact on the industry.
I have had clients who have refused to interview candidates that I recommended on the basis that they were not 'high-fliers' ( the client had got to a higher grade by their age) and failed to recognise that when SHE was on the way up there was not as much competition so she rose rapidly through the ranks.
It is not all the recruiters or employers fault. Several candidates approach the employment market in an unprofessional manner with poor cvs, arrogant letters and a total lack of appreciation of the people they are dealing with. The outstanding ones really do stand out and get the jobs.
7. anonymous
I was always led to believe that if you lacked the smarts to work in IT you became an IT recruiter so it's rather alarming to read about 20-something recruiters.
Obviously we have a real potential for a skills shortage if the niterati of this generation are already giving up the ghost and are attempting to use their lack of ability to influence the decisions of others.
8. anonymous
I agree, ageism is at the recruiter level. I've been told I'm ideal for jobs but the recruiter has to 'sell' me to the client. If he can find 10 people 25-35 as specified by the client most recruiters won't me forward. I'm in my late fifties now but since passing I've worked in IT for British Gas C&W and other Telecomms firms. At one Telco I was hired along with a 20-something year old as a BA. She was good too. After 6 weeks my boss told me he took a risk hiring me but he was proved right as he could send me anywhere in the company to talk with end users in the knowldege I'd know what they had in mind! But once the telecomms bubble burst three years ago it became impossible to get interviews. I'm now a school bursar, at a much lower salary, but respected for the breadth of knowledge I have.
9. anonymous
I am not sure whether I just being lucky. I've started working in IT when I was 33 with a young child and being a woman from a ethnic minority background. English is not my first language either. I am 48 now and have just started a new job this month. I have never out of work since the day I joined IT.
I have never said I was being discriminated. I just work 3 times as hard as any colleagues, male and female.
We write our own script.
10. Simon Allen (aged 49)
I posted the comments about recruiters, as I have seen this myself and saw the parallels in the OZ court case. Naturally, I do not think that all recruiters are at fault but the London Recruitment Consultant - who has a degree in the subject and is still working in his 50s - is a VERY rare animal indeed!
Whilst I am glad that age discrimination law is on it's way - it will make no difference. Because, as was stated, the problems are individual, not corporate.
The great difficulty that will emerge in attempting to prosecute a case is that, one person might get rejected by 10 companies and you would have to take them all to court and prove that you WERE suitable for each job.
In the OZ flight attendants case, they were all applying to the same company and could band together to prove discrimination.
11. anonymous
I too am 55 and in IT. The only places that seem to be open to us "oldsters" is government contracts. I am tired of contact work and want to find a place to call "home" but nobody but contractors are contacting me. Want to go to South Korea, or how about Iraq? No thanks, I have worked around the world in the military for 26 years! I want to settle down!!!!!!
12. Mary Edwards, Inside SOlutions Ltd
I would like to assure readers that not all IT Recruiters (Agencies) are "youngsters"; we have two over the age of 40 in our office. This is probably unusual. In fact, if you want to look at an industry that is very definitely ageist, then Recruitment Consultancy itself would be high on the list!
I find the term "too old" is often confused with "too experienced"; ie in the case where a role requires say 18 months programming, and a candidate with 10 years plus experience applies, they may mistake their over-qualification for the role as being an age rather than an experience related issue.
Having said that, I do agree that ageism is rife in recruitment across many sectors. As an "oldie" myself, I welcome the fairly imminent anti-ageism legislation.
13. Ewan G Jardine
An interesting attention grabber of an article that I would suggest is completely unsubstantiated. Talent is in short supply but obsolete talent is not. I would suggest that any recruiter working on behalf of an organisation is carrying out the search or recruitment excercise in accordance with the company's demands and requirements. There are inexperienced recruiters and there are candidates whom for one reason or another will be incorrectly deselected but any number of reasons might contribute. Lack of training, lack of knowledge, time pressure and poor analysis skills to name but a few. Deselecting candidates on age grounds is a rarity I'd suggest and given forthcoming legislation preventing it in the future, an even greater rarity going forward. Look to your skills and your communication style first but if it becomes very apparent that you are still being discriminated against then get a lawyer involved!
14. anonymous
I was recently passed over for a management position at one of the "Best 100 IT Companies To Work For In America". The hiring Director told me (and this is a direct quote), "I'm looking for someone younger and faster who can hit the ground running". She hired someone half my age, with no management experience, who is still being trained in the nuances of our work flow; I have 23 years of solid management experience. Go figure.
15. anonymous
YOU write your own script!!!
At age 65, I continue to work very successfully as a contract IT solution architect / designer, with a leading-edge provider of Broadband Internet solutions. I love the work and have no intention whatsoever of retiring.
This belief in being too old at 40, 50, 60, 70 (or any other age) is just a BELIEF, and it's nonsense. You DON'T have to accept it.
My advice is to keep fit, give good value, enjoy your work and NEVER EVER let anyone tell you you're too old!!!
16. Ian Matthews
Well said--I have an outstanding and highly successful track record of selling complex solutions but am unable to find employment in a market full of quality IT sales jobs. I am modern in my outlook and have a good understanding of technology and what it can achieve but regrettably employers have become indoctrinated with perceptions of "ideal" sales people not proven sales people.
17. anonymous
YOU write your own script!!!
At age 65, I continue to work very successfully as a contract IT solution architect / designer, with a leading-edge provider of Broadband Internet solutions. I love the work and have no intention whatsoever of retiring.
This belief in being too old at 40, 50, 60, 70 (or any other age) is just a BELIEF, and it's nonsense. You DON'T have to accept it.
My advice is to keep fit, give good value, enjoy your work and NEVER EVER let anyone tell you you're too old!!!
18. anonymous
Are you really that naive or are you just having a bit of fun? There are numerous examples of people simply changing their age to show that age is the deciding factor. Maybe Scotland is different but we are not imagining this it is a fact.
Recruiters and client companies will use some proxy for age to discount those applicants they think will not fit in. This can be anything from silly requirements such as 5 years of Visual Source Safe to confusing the fact that H.32 is a protocol and not a processor. These are real examples btw.
19. anonymous
How patronising can you get? There is nothing wrong generally with older job applicants concerning their skills and abilities, after all they have been in the business for many years and held their own. Agents and clients simply use the old excuse 'his skills are out of date' as a proxy for age.
20. Pissed off with politicians
Who died and put this government in charge? So they want to raise the state retirement pensionable age to 67 and make us all responsible for our own pensions from savings, but can't do anything about eliminating ageism in employment?
If we can't find work after age 40 or 50, how the heck can they expect us to save up enough (between age 18 and 40 or 50) to pay for our own living for the next 20 or 30 years without a job to retirement age - including paying for privately-paid-for health services that the NHS will not pay for (i.e. extortionately expensive dentistry, for example)?
21. Over 50 and still 'with it'
What we need is proactive discrimination. Until ageism is properly enforced as a sackable offence, young managers 21-35 will continue to argue that the Over-40s do not 'fit in' with their office or 'established staff structures' or are ‘over qualified’.
When blacks found it hard to get jobs in the US back in the 60s and 70s, the US put in 'proactive discrimination' laws, meaning that - all other things being equal - if a black man and a white man were evenly matched for a job opening, the black man got the job. To a point, that's fair enough until things get back on an even keel.
So why can't there be legally enforceable 'proactive discrimination' regarding age in filling jobs? The real problem is that no one in government has the balls to enforce it!
22. Teach them social skills
Over qualified? Too much experience? Since when was having too much experience, knowledge or wisdom a case for getting a bad grade in school or uni? Yet these managers are claiming that having "too much experience" and skills/knowledge will somehow make their company or department under-perform?! Pul-leeze!
The honest truth is that these young managers have such poor social skills that they can't relate to people of other ages and are afraid that an older person with more experience might make them look less capable by comparison.
Frankly, I blame the education system for grinding in just the facts (as in Chas. Dickens’ character Mr Gradgrind) and not enough of the social interaction skills needed in the real world for group problem-solving.
23. Knowledge, Wisdom: spot the difference
What a waste! How much intellectual power is going to waste in the UK (or worldwide) by not employing some of the best and most experienced minds from the population on the BIG problems of our society? ...many of which are over 30 believe it or not.
No wonder this world continues to make the same old mistakes over and over - the young aren't taught to respect wisdom, where to find it, or the difference between knowledge and wisdom...and then THEY are put in charge!
The sad truth is that older managers know that they can employ two or more young managers for the same amount of money as the one older manager and still keep their wage budget intact. Then as the younger managers progress they’re afraid to hire anyone with more knowledge or experience than themselves (and who are typically, though not always, older than they are).
24. anonymous
I'm a recruiter, and if you have the skills, I don't care how old you are, I'll put you forward for the job.
25. anonymous
It'a not just in IT, folks. It's all over the place, and it's getting worse.
I've been looking for a job for over 14 months now. I have 20+ years in the front lines of the airline industry, a brand new BS degree in technical writing, and two years of tech writing in an airline environment. (The airline I worked for recently went Chapter 7 and closed up shop.) Yet I get few interviews and no callbacks. Why?
I've come to the reluctant conclusion that, in spite of my experience and degree, I may well end up handing out carts at Wal-Mart because a bunch of twenty-something know-nothings with MBA's are in charge of hiring these days.
There is always an 'out' for an employer to use as an excuse for not hiring someone...simply point to one thing in the job description that the applicant doesn't meet, and call it 'critical.' Who can call them on that?
So here I am at 48, wondering what the H--- I'm supposed to do now, owing 30K for a degree for a profession that no one seems to want to hire me for.
26. Neal Smith
I wonder if the 20 somethings have stopped to think that if us older folks don't have work, they'll be paying more to support us?
I've been out of work for four months as a Graphic Designer. I'm 53. Yes, I have some arthritis and plenty of gray hair. I also have plenty of life experience that doesn't come from any school that goes towards getting the job done right the first time.
And, no, I'm not going to retire early. Far too many of us are going to have to work until we drop in our tracks.
Can you teach a dog new tricks? Yes. easier than an ignorant, arrogant young dog!
Skywolf.
27. anonymous
Reading the comments from those who have been discriminated against due to age is so very true. I have been going to temp agencies (young workers there) and on job interviews (young managers), and was very well qualified for the positions but I think they found my maturity and age not to mention that I am female a threat to them or their position. What are we to do to prevent this and to do something about it?
28. anonymous
Absolutely ageism is a problem. My skills are top notch. My personal presentaion is finely tuned. I have more knowledge and creaticity, not to mention drive for excellence than most of the young people I've worked around.
Personally I think that if these people want to create a society where anyone over twentyfive is obsolete, then they deserve it when it happenes to them.
And whose fault is it. None of the other posters seem to grasp: this is a top level corporate strategy. By not supporting older workers, they can keep raises down and create a pensionless society.
It's basic corporate fascism.
29. Greg Michael
Age issues are real. Image and physical appearance count. Just look at any big pharma rep. Companies want their products represented by healthy, attractive people - in all cases.
I'm 45 and having a dog of a time during this job search. Here's how to find your age. Ask on the form what year did you graduate?
As a general rule, 25 year olds are not comfortable with 45 year olds. So the other person on this post does have merit.
My experience with recruiters during this search has been far from stellar - as a group they leave a bitter taste. For example, I recently went on the 3rd live interview with a major company doing a gig I love. The two people that were interviewing me this time around were a regional VP and the top sales person. These two detested each other. They behaved like children interrupting each other and the VP actually said "my time is more valuable than yours so let me talk - to the head sales guy. End of story she said I addressed him more than her and that was disrespectful since she was the VP - I said what the fuck - the recruiter in an effort to maintain his relationship with that company supported their side - still pissed off and the irony is the VP is now gone!
But the thing about recruiters is if they hook you up with a lead and you don’t land it – you will never hear from them again – that’s classic.
30. anonymous
I'm 50 and have been attacking the job market agressively now for 8 months with very little to show for it. I've applied to over a thousand positions, about 250 of which I was extremely qualified for based on my work history. I've had a total of 8 interviews, (only 4 of which coming from the "qualified" opportunities) and was told I was "over qualified" on 4 occasions. I think as applicants we are generally too honest in how we approach the game and assume that showing all you've accomplished over your career is a good thing, but it probably isn't. Hiring managers and recruiters only care about how you measure up against the requirement for the job youv'e applied to..and that';s it. Indeed, too much information is counter productive as it seems to minimize the matching qualifications. I'm going to try to change my approach, target only the most relevant opportunities and structure my resume to include only the qualifications relevant to that job...and leaving out my previous experience and any references that would "date" me. Hopefully this approach will result in more interviews.
31. anonymous
Age discrimination=management by suicide. I’m in my mid-60s and still working as a consultant, but I think it’s because I don’t look my age. No doubt, age discrimination has been around for a long time. We idolize our youth, which, in and of itself is a good thing. Sadly, it’s been carried too far into the workplace.
Often, management sacrifices wisdom in favor of luster. And the impact has been devastating. Just do a quick study of our (lack of) competitiveness in the “global” economy—therein lies the proof. The most powerful nation on earth is now lagging behind because of a lack of experience and wisdom. We’re in that generation gap—the abyss—where we dropped the baton of solid management principles.
Ironically, this state of affairs keeps me working. I’ve mentored some of our young on so many “no-brainer” judgment calls it’s not funny!
Also, in IT there are a lot of expensive “pay later” corrections to botched jobs done by non-Americans. Who ever thought getting foreigners to replace American ingenuity was smoking something.